Washizu Tournament

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Bunta
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Washizu Tournament

Post by Bunta » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:21 pm

There is a Washizu Mahjong Tournament in the Netherlands.

http://www.riichi.nl/washizu

But unfortunatly its by invitation only!
My question is: What rules would you play in it?

zzo38
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Re:Washizu Tournament

Post by zzo38 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:26 am

Probably you might play the standard Washizu rules, as used in Akagi DS or in the manga books (the difference is that in Akagi DS you can see all of your partner\'s tiles). For direct hit bonus you could have a equal number of hit-points each team, or just calculate direct hits scores separately and add those on to the final scores after uma and oka is calculated.

However, I also have my own tournament with Washizu tiles (I now have a set of Washizu tiles), but the idea was created before this one was, and it has various rule differences, too. Also it is probably a small tournament.

Regardless of which rules used, I would put all of the opaque tiles on the left without arranging them, and put all the transparent tiles on the right and arranged and turned right-side-up. (However, the rules should allow you to put your opaque tiles anywhere, it is just recommended to put it all together on the left, to make it difficult for the opponents to understand).

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Re:Washizu Tournament

Post by Senechal » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:06 pm

Assuming there\'s no blood pumping devices, you should be playing standard rules with the exception of procedural stuff, I mean, that\'s exactly how they put it in Akagi, right?

No blood, no direct bonus payments, and you end up with a standard game with nonstandard tiles. Seriously, why would you want to play a game in which the rules are changed on more dimensions than it has to?

And I\'m guessing given zzo38\'s reaction to this is that he posted the comment that he wanted to run a Washizu tournament first. Without a concrete plan, that\'s trolling, nothing more; the only way you can beat them to the actual punch is by doing it (and having more than one table). Besides, how could you run a Washizu game without fu, count han like HK doubles? It wouldn\'t be riichi anymore.

Also, any policing on hand arrangement is utterly futile and doesn\'t deserve to see ink on paper (or electrons on screen). Just play 100% transparent if you force people to put tiles in order, or all opaque to a side, it\'s what you want, isn\'t it?
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Re:Washizu Tournament

Post by Shirluban » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:01 pm

To make it simple:
* no blood pumping
* no direct payment
* team play, as in Akagi:
- one player is the \"better\", the other is the \"dummy\"
- only the \"better\"\'s score matters
- for each team, the \"dummy\" seats on the right of the \"better\"
- a player can help his team mate in any way a normal riichi rule allows (throwing an obvious winning tile is ok, switching tiles under the table is forbidden)
* to determine which is the winning team, compare only the scores of each team\'s \"better\" (\"dummy\"\'s scores does not matter)
* the rest as for a standard riichi game
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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zzo38
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Re:Washizu Tournament

Post by zzo38 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:48 pm

I never said I would run a Washizu tournament first. And I probably won\'t do it first, because it has a later start date. I just said my idea was at first.

And there is no force to put tiles in order. In you read the message on Jan.29 on the tournament site, they have some things written about these rules. All that I mean is that what I would do is put opaque tiles on the left and transparent tiles on the right, if you prefer you could still arrange them in proper order if you prefer that. And, some players never arrange their tiles at all.

But the Shirluban\'s listed rules works, and would probably be the case (although they might give bonus for direct hits, or maybe not, they have some messages about that, and either way works). However, the dummy\'s scores are still used, but only to calculate oka and uma (at least this is what is done in Akagi DS, but to simplify it you could just not keep track of the dummy\'s scores).

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Re: Washizu Tournament

Post by Fat*Dragon » Thu May 27, 2010 9:30 am

Have you seen the construction pics on mahjongnews.com for a Washizu table?

http://www.mahjongnews.com/en/index.php ... uhype.html

My main question wouldn't be "what will I draw if I grab inside of this thing" rather than "what will happen to my hand if I grab in there"! :D Maybe when you chombo your hand gets chopped off inside that "tower". :( This adds to my fear of playing Washizu style. We shouldn't challenge the gods of mahjong...

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Re: Washizu Tournament

Post by Barticle » Thu May 27, 2010 5:57 pm

I'm actually (finally!) watching the Akagi anime for the first time at the moment - and loving it. :D I'm up to Episode 20 so I'm in the midst of the Washizu matches. I'm really liking the combination of analysis, tension and introspection plus the mind-games and sleight-of-hand cheating. Highly recommended to any mahjong fans who've not watched it - there are loads of websites where you can watch it with good English subtitles.

I like the idea of team play (as in the anime); it adds an interesting new dimension to the game. However you would then be limiting your tourny entries to pairs. You could make pairs from solo players at the tournament but to properly collude during a match they'd need to have prearranged, practised signals. Also half of all your players would have to accept their inferior role as "dummy", although the two players in each team could take turns I guess.

Players should wear a glove on the hand they use to draw tiles (also as in the anime). You wouldn't expect too many people to be proficient at reading tiles quickly by touch but, as someone notes on that Dutch site, anyone can recognise a Japanese white dragon.

BTW Senechal, I love your new sig! :) (BTW you need to untick the "Disable BBCode" box to make the formatting tags work.)

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Re: Re:Washizu Tournament

Post by audacity » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:21 am

Shirluban wrote:To make it simple:
* no blood pumping
* no direct payment
* team play, as in Akagi:
- one player is the \"better\", the other is the \"dummy\"
- only the \"better\"\'s score matters
- for each team, the \"dummy\" seats on the right of the \"better\"
- a player can help his team mate in any way a normal riichi rule allows (throwing an obvious winning tile is ok, switching tiles under the table is forbidden)
* to determine which is the winning team, compare only the scores of each team\'s \"better\" (\"dummy\"\'s scores does not matter)
* the rest as for a standard riichi game
This actually sounds worse than normal mahjong by far.

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Re: Re:Washizu Tournament

Post by Shirluban » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:50 pm

audacity wrote:This actually sounds worse than normal mahjong by far.
So, what do you suggest for Washizu rules?
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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audacity
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Re: Re:Washizu Tournament

Post by audacity » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:57 am

Shirluban wrote:
audacity wrote:This actually sounds worse than normal mahjong by far.
So, what do you suggest for Washizu rules?
I don't have any concrete suggestions, but it's more than likely that anything involving collusion or teamwork of any kind would make people's heads explode. The EMA is skeptical enough about the skill level of its members as it is, there's no need to complicate things unnecessarily. Something closely resembling normal play would run the smoothest, as then you have less idiotic questions about various aspects of washizu mahjong.

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Re: Washizu Tournament

Post by York1jm » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:27 am

I realize I am rather late to this discussion, but I would like to throw in my two cents about how, to me, Washizu Mahjong should be played. There are some rules that the Netherlands tournament is using that I like and some things I would change. Quick note, you can put the tiles wherever you want, which is how it should be.

Pros:
*team play, as in Akagi
*for each team, the \"dummy\" seats on the right of the \"better\, (however both people should be trying to compete, I don't like the idea of only one person trying to win.
*a player can help his team mate in any way a normal riichi rule allows (throwing an obvious winning tile is ok, switching tiles under the table is forbidden)
*the rest as for a standard riichi game.
*Using Automatic Mahjong tables

Things I could change:
*The winner is determined by whoever gets in first.
*Direct hit payments and Tsumo Bonuses do exist, but they operate a little differently.
*I would make you wear the glove so you cannot feel your tile when you draw it.

As in Akagi the direct hits and tsumos had either an exchange of blood or money, obviously this is not happening when we play Washizu Mahjong. However, what I think people don't understand is that it is not the see through tiles that make Washizu Mahjong Washizu Mahjong, the tiles merely help to escalate the fear of dealing into other peoples hands. So in order to try and recreate that, in the best way I can think of, we will have direct hits and tsumo bonuses against opposite teams. However the penality will not be blood or money, it will result in the loser having a direct negation to his score and winner gaining that amount as a bonus. This does not apply when dealing into teammates hands, it only applies to direct hits on opposite teams and the tsumo only affects the two members of the opposite team, although your teammate will lose the appropriate amount of points, but will not suffer the score negation.

For Example:
You are West Seat, your partner North, Opposite team member 1 East, and opposite team member 2 South seat.

You draw a Mangan hand and Tsumo it for 8000 points, therefore The dealer pays 4000 and rest pay 2000. Along with losing the points the dealer's score is now -4, his ally's score is -2, and your ally's score remains at 0 and you receive a bonus of +6.

Second Example:
You are East, Partner South, Opponent 1 West, and Opponent 2 North
You get a direct hit on Opponent 1 with a Haneman for 18,000 points and he suffers a -18 to his score and you receive a +18.

This is more or less how I was thinking about running Washizu Mahjong if I was ever to run a tournament or merely a 6 full East-South games of it. You will also have the Uma or rank bonus set at, as in Washizu Mahjong 1-3(So 10,000, 30.000).

Yeah, so this just my idea of how to run Washizu Mahjong, maybe it totally stinks, but let me know what you think. I think it is about as close as your going to get to Washizu Mahjong, well without the law coming after you :)

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Re: Washizu Tournament

Post by Shirluban » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:33 pm

I don't get your "direct hits and tsumo bonuses against opposite teams" system:
First example, you win a mangan hand (8000 points), and earn only 6000 while your opponents pays the normal sum.
So isn't you, the winner, who is penalized?

Second example, "You get a direct hit on Opponent 1 with a Haneman for 18,000 points and he suffers a -18 to his score and you receive a +18.".
Isn't it exactly what happen in a "standard" riichi game?

Or maybe I missed something?
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: Washizu Tournament

Post by York1jm » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:20 pm

For the first example I probably did not explain it clear enough. The dealer will give you 4000 and the opponent 2 will give you 2000 and your ally will give you 2000. Like it says above, your ally pays the normal points, but does not suffer an immediate negation to their score.

What I mean by the negation to the score, I mean that is immediate. The scores are normally not calculated until the end of an entire Hanchan during normal Reach Mahjong. So the end of the game the points are 48,200, 24,700, 22,000, 5,100. So this puts them at +38, -5, -8, -25. This would be in a normal game.


The opponent deals into the haneman in East 1 and immediately suffers a -18 and you will get the +18 bonus. Even if you are able to get your points back from a ron on your ally, this negation will not disappear. The only to have it be removed is to get a Tsumo or Ron on the opposite team. So lets assume had draws for the rest of the game, yeah I know it wouldn't happen, but still. You are at 43,000, 25,000, 25,000, 7000. So you would be at +13, 0, 0 -23. However you also get the +18 for the +13 player, putting him at +21 and the other would be at -41. So the penalty is separate from your regular calculation of score.

Perhaps I have not thought it out as well as I thought. Hopefully that clarifies it a bit more and suggestions would be great. Finding a better way to run Washizu Mahjong would be really interesting.

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Re: Washizu Tournament

Post by zzo38 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:30 am

I can describe the exact "Akagi DS" style. No money and blood is needed, you just need to keep track of hit-points of each team. Each team starts with a number of hit-points and then they can decrease, but never increase. If one team's hit-points goes to zero (or negative), then the match is immediately over and that team loses. Each player keeps a separate game points (with scoring sticks). Other rules are as thus:
  • If the captain of one team pays the captain of the other team due to Tsumo or Ron win, the loser loses the equal number of hit-points to the points they lost. Other payments are done normally but no hit-points are lost.
  • In case of exhaustive, and one team has tenpai and one has no-ten, this payment also results in loss of hit-points.
  • If someone bets riichi and the deal ends in a draw, then you still have to keep track of whose sticks they are. If the riichi sticks were bet by the captain of one team, and the captain of the other team wins the hand and takes them, the captain that lost the sticks loses the same number of hit-points as the sticks are worth in total.
  • At end of hanchan, compute Oka and Uma for all four players separately. Compare the scores of the captains. Whoever has less points loses amount of hit-points equal to the difference between the scores.
  • You are allowed to look at your teammate's tiles (whether opaque or transparent), and communicate with your teammate whatever you want. You can look at your opponents transparent tiles but not their opaque tiles.
  • All other rules like normal mahjong (except the transparent tiles). Your teammate is still considered a separate player (so you can still call off of each other, and so on).
You might try playing this way. If you do not want dummy's points to be worthless, you can make their points worth 1/10 as much as normal when calculating loss of hit-points, or even less (such as 1/20), or more (such as 1/5), whatever you think works best. However, for normal game you make dummy's points worth nothing for calculating hit-points (but they are still needed to determine whether or not you are allowed to call riichi, and to calculate Oka and Uma).

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Re: Washizu Tournament

Post by Referee » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:16 pm

Maybe a good way to play is to mark one tile of each in some way (so that they're distinguishable from the non-marked ones, but not among themselves), and then build the walls normally, and no gloves are needed. All unmarked tiles in your hand you have to put flat on the table for everyone to see. If you find some way for the marks not being permanent, the much better, because you can revert to normal mahjong.

If you have two sets that are equal in size but with a different back color you can mix the tiles in an appropriate way. Aren't MJ tables like that? If so, and playing with one, the "opaque" color changes between round, and you may need some reminder (though it should be easy to see).

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