World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

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Masa
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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Masa » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:13 pm

Section 7.2 Fouls
"Having too many or less tiles : Dead hand"
Less tiles is naturally dead hand because can not make tenpai at all.
But many tiles is not. even more it allows to make cheating.

I know many Japan competition rule use dead hand for "many tiles", but parlor is chonbo.
The reason I assume the referee always at the table in the competition and it is very rare for professionals.
and many tiles is not happened intentionally.

But WRC is diversity competition. and referees are not at the table always I think.
How about followings.
- If declare by players immediately -> dead hand
- If pointed out by referee or other players -> Chonbo

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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Ozball » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:37 am

Shirluban wrote:You're assuming right.

While you're at it, there are other points I don't know about Mu Mahjpong and NPM rules.
May I ask you to point them to --> this xls spreadsheet <-- and report me the missing points/errors?
Some NPM info I was able to get today:
Entering west round: nashi

Furiten reach: ari (I need to double check this one. I'm sure he said it was allowed, but I've written nashi down on my notes :/)

Bankruptcy: nashi (same as JPML)

Double Reach: ari

Open Reach: nashi

Kazoe Yakuman: nashi

Tenhou: ari

Chihou: ari

Renhou: nashi

Haitei/Houtei: both ari

Daisushii: single yakuman

Ryuiisou hatsu Nashi: ari (don't need hatsu for the yakuman)

Kokushi Ankan Ron: they thought nashi but weren't 100% sure

Daisharin: nashi

Sticks used for scoring

No time limit in league matches. Tournaments there are but not sure on the rule. Should be able to after tomorrow's qualifier. (it's an NPM tournament)

Deciding seats: I still don't understand how the system works, despite being subjected to it in the Oui tournament (so JPML use it as well). It involves :east :north :south :west 1-dot and 2-dot and rolling the dice.

As for who you play against, again I'll be able to shed more light tomorrow. I do know that JPML used random match ups. All 4 of our initial games were decided before we played the first. At which point there was an elimination border (which I missed by 1.6 points :cry: ) and match ups were done again.

EDIT: both JPML instances are A Rules.
"Furiten is the most holiest!" - Garthe Nelson

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MFC: オズボール - Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Master
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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Shirluban » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:37 pm

Masa wrote:How about followings.
- If declare by players immediately -> dead hand
- If pointed out by referee or other players -> Chonbo
Chonbo would be very harsh for an unintentional error, and there is no need to cancel the hand as long the fault have little impact to other players' game.
If it's intentional (and can be proven so), the penalty for cheating is disqualification.

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Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Senechal » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:24 pm

That dice thing is fairly stupid. You take six tiles, and you shuffle them while others are present. Then you stack them in line, and turn them up with all players present.

Assuming the dice roll is already done... with the six tiles, you pull the 2 tile (or even) to one side whichever it is closer to, and the 1 (or odd) tile to the other side. And you distribute winds (from self?) from the side that matches the dice roll. S-W-N-2-1-E == 2-S-W-N-E-1, and with the dice roll, the winds are distributed SWNE (even) or ENWS (odd).

It's stupid, a time waster, and in a tournament setting, leads to inane crap like being East 5 out of 9 matches, on top of gobbling up time that could be devoted to playing. In Europe, as far as I know, the Dutch, and only the Dutch, use this system. Most other tournaments I have seen assign winds with tables, and in friendlies, people just take 4 tiles and get their wind. No mystical energies of pseudo-fairness required.

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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Shirluban » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:57 pm

There's a lengthy description here:
http://www.reachmahjong.com/en/forum/vi ... =5&t=52577
But as Garthe and others have pointed out "there are always variations".

"Most other tournaments I have seen assign winds with tables, and in friendlies, people just take 4 tiles and get their wind."
Those two ways are exactly the ones wrote in EMA 2012 and World Riichi Rule.

"That dice thing is fairly stupid."
Mind you, as a referee I've already been called because "they have thrown the dice one time instead of two".
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by zzo38 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:02 pm

To make the position fairly you could have:
  • One player throw dice, if 5 or 6 you try again until it is 1 to 4, meaning 1 東, 2 南, 3 西, 4 北.
  • Next player throw dice, 1 or 2 meaning 東, 3 or 4 南, 5 or 6 西. It applies 北 if that one is already taken.
  • Third player throw dice, where 1 and 3 and 5 means the wind direction which would be playing before the other one which isn't already taken.
Maybe there are other ways to do it fairly, which are more common, but this describes one possibility.

Other, probably more simple way, probably much more common, pick up four tiles one each of 東,南,西,北 and picked randomly. It requires you to find and pick up such tiles though, and if it is already all mixed up, it is more difficult.

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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Masa » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:52 am

The definition of "noten"

At section 5.7.2:
If the hands expect 5th tiles(e.g: you have kan of 7 and your waiting is also 7)is it still tenpai or noten ?
It should be mentioned this point or it was removed ?

At section 7.2:
If all waiting tiles are shown in the pond, also noten-riichi rule applied ?(In Japanese Karaten-riichi). It happens accidentally.
It should be mentioned as well.

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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Shirluban » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:43 pm

Tenpai / noten are defined in §2.2.
A hand needing five identical tiles is noten.
If all waiting tiles are shown in the pond, the hand is still tenpai. (In tenpai definition: "The completing tiles may be depleted.")
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Masa » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:00 pm

2) The completing tile must exist. A hand needing five identical tiles can never be completed, so it is not tenpai.

This definition needs more explain.
Is this sentence supposes following situation right ?
1-bam 2-bam 4-dot 5-dot 6-dot 9-bam 9-bam pon 3-bam 3-bam 3-bam chi  1-bam 2-bam 3-bam

Current sentence says "must exist". but if all completion tiles are in the pond, but also does not exist.
But it is tenpai unless above situation. Example JPML rule for this matter says if he uses all completing tile within his hands, it is not tenpai.

Just to be clarified,
5th tiles is expecting and used all tiles within the hands > Noten, if riichi is declared -> Chonbo
All completing tiles are in the pond -> tenpai, so that riichi declaration is valid even he knows all tiles are in the pond.

What below sentence want to say at this section ?
"The completing tiles may be depleted."

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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Referee » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:23 am

zzo38 wrote:To make the position fairly you could have:
  • One player throw dice, if 5 or 6 you try again until it is 1 to 4, meaning 1 東, 2 南, 3 西, 4 北.
  • Next player throw dice, 1 or 2 meaning 東, 3 or 4 南, 5 or 6 西. It applies 北 if that one is already taken.
  • Third player throw dice, where 1 and 3 and 5 means the wind direction which would be playing before the other one which isn't already taken.
Maybe there are other ways to do it fairly, which are more common, but this describes one possibility.

Other, probably more simple way, probably much more common, pick up four tiles one each of 東,南,西,北 and picked randomly. It requires you to find and pick up such tiles though, and if it is already all mixed up, it is more difficult.
If you want to go the dice route, since we have two dice, we are fortunate that they give 36 results, which divides nicely into four and into three. It's just a bit awkward.

For instance, first roll could be 5 or 6 East, 8 or 9 South, 7 or 10 West, Otherwise North. Second roll could divide into 4 to 6, 8 to 10, or Otherwise. And third roll 7 to 10, or Otherwise. Awkward but fair.

But the simplest way is just looking for those winds and have people draw them.

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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by jespernohr » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:30 am

Looking forward to the updated version of the rules.

We have started playing with the rules here in Denmark to get used to them, so an updated rule set would be great :)

-Jesper

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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by jespernohr » Sat May 17, 2014 5:33 am

The lack of update to the rules is high unprofessional and unsatisfactory for the players going to the tournament!

There is less than two months until the tournament have started and if you expect people want to practise and feel comfortable in this rules, then the official rules needs to be updated NOW!

Errata, clarifications, etc. found on a hidden forum cannot be expected to be valid rules in the tournament. Only the rule system on the official website can be expected to count.

Huge shame if these clarifications, errata doesn't make it into the game because of lack of professionalism towards the event and the players!

I might come across as a grumpy man, but the lack of communication and update to the rules, since my last post, is a huge joke! It is already a joke that one had to find this information on a different site than official tournament site.

Less than two months until the tournament! The clock is ticking...

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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by gemma » Sat May 17, 2014 7:02 am

Hi Jesper! First of all, thanks for posting! Did you email the WRC organizers about your frustrations? I can also ask them to look into this.

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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by Shirluban » Sat May 17, 2014 9:32 pm

Long story short, the final revision of the rule's content was completed on Feb. 23.
Since then, the editor gave no sign of life during two months, despite regular reminders.
We now have a new editor, and the making-up have been completed and validated four days ago.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: World Riichi Championship 2014 - rules!

Post by jespernohr » Sun May 18, 2014 10:10 pm

Great to hear :) Looking forward to the updated ruleset to be added to www.wrc2014.com :)

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