What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

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What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by HotelFSR » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:30 pm

I\'m curious to hear opinions.

What do you like and dislike?

What changes would you suggest?

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by WorTeX » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:54 am

Played once, liked very much because the difference between it and riichi isn\'t that great in my opinion. If thinking about changes, some hands probably could be removed making the combos easier to remember. Didn\'t study the score amounts that much, so can\'t comment if they are in balance or not.

Nothing to dislike I think... Except I need huge sums of money in order to play in WSoM and can\'t afford it :(

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by Shirluban » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:39 pm

WSoM rules seems very good, but I can\'t try them :S
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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by Tom Sloper » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:19 pm

HotelFSR wrote:I\'m curious to hear opinions.
Question back 2U. What do YOU think of them?
4649おねがいします。

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by HotelFSR » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:49 pm

What I like:

* No Self Draw Bonus
* No Dealer Scoring Advantage
* Rarer Hands like Itsuu, Chanta, Sanshoku worth more
(when we play Reach we like to give these hands +1)


Things I don\'t like:

* No Reach
* No Furiten
* No Prevalent Wind (Most Winds End Up Useless)
* Some Hands Seem Drastically Over/Undervalued:

e.g.

Toi-Toi + Yakuhai = 50 points
Toi-Toi + Yakuhai + Yakuhai = 60 points

Concealed + Pinfu + Tanyao = 15 points?
Concealed + Pinfu + Tanyao + Iipeikou = Only 25 points??

Surely the above is rarer than Toi-Toi + Yakuhai?

Yet it\'s worth half!!


Too much again:

Toi-Toi + Half Flush + Yakuhai = 90 points ???
Toi-Toi + Half Flush + Yakuhai + Yakuhai = 100 points ???

Full Flush = 100 points (Also Too Much!!)

Too little in comparison:

Big Three Dragons = 130 points??
Four Concealed Triplets = 125 points??
Three Quads = 120 points??



Basically,

Despite good intentions, I\'m not sure rewarding hands based purely on their statistical rarity is a good gameplay idea in practice. (Although the above does not seem to reflect even that). Unless you play a very large number of hands to iron out the variance, a limit system helps make the game more competitive by limiting the score swings. Contrary to what Alan, the inventor of WSoM Rules might insist, I don\'t think that building a pretty hand should be the prime focus of the game- that is what takes the least skill. Pretty hands depend most of all on getting great starting tiles. I prefer Reach since it is a tighter and more defensive game where the patterns are secondary- which may be less aesthetically pleasing but I feel it\'s better for competitive gameplay. Would you not agree?

I do, however, vastly prefer A-Rules over B-Rules. I especially like the Saikouisen Classic Rules, which are A-Rules except the Dealer must Win to Continue and there are no payments for being Ready on a Draw Game.


Essentially, what I don\'t like about Reach (for competitive purposes rather than entertainment or gambling):


* Self Draw Bonus
* Dealer Scoring Advantage/Disadvantage (Too Random Overall)
* Rarer Hands like Itsuu, Chanta, Sanshoku are Undervalued
* Base Points (Fu) System Should be Streamlined


If you didn\'t have things like self draw bonus and dealer paying more on self draw, it would be possible to guarantee staying out of fourth place if you play perfectly. As it stands, some unnecessary luck still remains in the A-Rules game.

Don\'t get me wrong, I enjoy luck, but everything in moderation. There need to be limits, in competition certainly.


P.S. Mathematical logic dictates that since patterns can be stacked, their combined value cannot be expressed effectively with an additive scoring system such as the one WSoM uses. You need something that works exponentially.

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by Archon_Wing » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:08 am

Iipeikou is actually fairly common especially if you can call tiles. It\'s just that the system doesn\'t really valued concealed highly since it tends to overlap with sequence hands.

Big Three Dragons = 130 points??
Four Concealed Triplets = 125 points??

These seem to be sorta undervalued, though I think it\'s actually 160 since everything stacks. 4 concealed triplets is 165.


Full Flush = 100 points (Also Too Much!!)

Actually, full flush is pretty hard to finish, especially if people discard sensibly since it\'s the most transparent pattern ever. ;)
I don\'t think that building a pretty hand should be the prime focus of the game
It\'s not, because chances are pretty hands don\'t get finished very fast. Remember you can win with basically any hand that is complete. But in practice, exclusively aiming for large hands tends to get thrawted fairly easily. Though perhaps the limit system should be a bit tigher with the hands that are basically pure luck.

Prevailing wind seems like it\'s missing much flavor if it\'s not there. Although it should be noted that the value of a special triplet is already pretty high.

Both Riichi and WSOM styles require skill in one of the most basic parts of mahjong. Being able to know how far away your hand is from being done, and the fastest way to finish while trying to discard more sensibly of course.

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by 5dots » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:53 am

I have 2 questions about the \"Rule of Same-Turn Immunity\", which give damages to the defense system.

1. Should it be the player\'s responsibility when he/she missed the first discarded winning tile, thus he/she should not have the chance to win a hand when the SAME card is discarded before he/she draw a card or call for a pong, chow or kong? (As I will not expect I\'ll lose any point when I throw the same tile)

2. Is it \"good\" for a player win from a discard tile that he/she threw it in the same round to gain extra points? For example, you got 1112345688999c, drawing a 7c doesn\'t count as 9-Treasures. But when you throw 8c and win from a discarded 8c in the same round, you \"self-drawn\" a 9-Treasure now.

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by Arcade » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:07 am

I like the idea of three winds qualifing for yaku.

The points I don\'t like are:

Paying 30 points to the hand winner regardless of who throws the winning tile. :angry:
There\'s no kuisagari. Benefits of keeping a hand concealed are almost null.
This probably results in people almost always going for either flushes, toitoi, chii\'ed pinfu or tanyao. Haven\'t played WSoM rules, just my guess.
Shouldn\'t blessings from heaven/earth be worth more if points were based on statistical rarity as the publisher states?
Defence strategy is significantly inefficient compared to reach rules.

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by Archon_Wing » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:15 am

About rule of same-turn.

Hmm, odd rule. When I\'ve tried playing with then WSOM system, I haven\'t given much thought to it. It doesn\'t make any sense for the first person to pay (The chance to claim that tile has already passed.)
2. Is it \"good\" for a player win from a discard tile that he/she threw it in the same round to gain extra points? For example, you got 1112345688999c, drawing a 7c doesn\'t count as 9-Treasures. But when you throw 8c and win from a discarded 8c in the same round, you \"self-drawn\" a 9-Treasure now.
You\'d still win, just that no one is penalized. ;p
Shouldn\'t blessings from heaven/earth be worth more if points were based on statistical rarity as the publisher states?
It would, but that would be really game breaking. (It already is...) ;) Though I\'m thinking the chances are so unlikely that the value is just completely arbitrary.

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by 5dots » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:20 pm

Archon_Wing wrote:You\'d still win, just that no one is penalized. ;p
Everyone (except the winner) is "penalized" when the hand upgraded from about 100 all to 480 all for throwing what the winner has thrown :S

(Maybe it is easier to delete 9-Treasure than changing the "Rule of Same-Turn Immunity" as only Japanese rule and Chinese Official rule counts 9-Treasure)

---

I found a Chinese version explanation by Alan Kwan. (I don\'t think there\'s an English or Japanese version)
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/Mahjo ... hk.html#Q5

What I understand is that
1. It is a technique to wait for a higher score winning tile (e.g. 3 color runs).
2. It is normal that you will wait for a tile that you threw it earlier.
3. Experts will not miss a winning tile for no reason. The player who threw the first winning tile out "lose the game" in normal situation that he will be responsible for the same winning tile discarded for that round.

I admit that the first 2 statements are true but not the third one. (but I will never say that furiten rule is wrong: Furiten made a characteristic in Japanese mahjong and require different skills then)

What I should say is that
1. Why a player lose a game by "discarding", without doing anything at the moment? (Especially when "pao" is not used)
2. Why the player miss the first winning tile? If it\'s technique, why the player declare "mahjong" for the same winning tiles in the same round?
3. Should any player expect losing any point when discarding the same tile as "kamicha (the player left to you)"? It yes, so is it damaging defense system?

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by Archon_Wing » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:04 pm

Everyone (except the winner) is \"penalized\" when the hand upgraded from about 100 all to 480 all for throwing what the winner has thrown
When I meant penalized, I meant \"responsible\" and has to pay more. In this system, it\'s 2x.

But the truth of the matter is that the situation will come up so little, that perhaps so little thought was given to this particular rule. Missing a winning tile to catch something so coincidental is in most cases a \"stupid\" play. It\'d be like calling all in poker with j high only to catch a runner runner royal flush. I must agree that I don\'t like this rule very much though.

Anyhow, the reason why the payment is more spread out is since there are no protective rules like furiten and such plus it\'s easier to go out, that 1 player cannot be held as responsible as other versions of mahjong.

P.S. Just for kicks... I\'ve tried replacing \"concealed\" with riichi instead (obviously worth a bit more since it would require that deposit of points).

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by HotelFSR » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:07 pm

I\'ve done the same thing! Also adding in Furiten & Discarder Pays All.

Replacing concealed with Reach, we say it doubles the value of each pattern to a maximum of +10, which means it is pretty much as in the regular game. I actually spoke to Alan Kwan about this and he approved of it.

As a side note, I find it surprising that some of the posters on this thread say they like WSoM rules- and yet were hostile to my views on Reach elsewhere.

Why slam the idea that things like Menzen, the Dealer system and Dora could be removed, then say you approve of WSoM, which has in fact removed all of these things?

Odd, no?


Having said that, I still prefer Reach rules overall.

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by Archon_Wing » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:00 pm

Why slam the idea that things like Menzen, the Dealer system and Dora could be removed, then say you approve of WSoM, which has in fact removed all of these things?
Different styles for different experiences, I guess. There\'s many diffrent ways to play mahjong, and sometimes I have to end up playing Hong Kong old style with a high minimum limit because people aren\'t willing to tolerate anything else (everyone thinks their house rules are the right one, even if it\'s not their house -_-), which is probaly the most broken set of rules ever. But hey, they find it fun, so yea. Or they have something against Japan, I don\'t know, but it\'s still fun to have variety some times. That\'s the other thing, most people who play these games other gambling games tend to play for the thrill and not for skill. Sure, they may brag about skill, but mostly it\'s just bragging about luck. ;)

These things like the dealer and dora system are what make Reach unique from other systems of play, for better or for worse.

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by HotelFSR » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:14 am

True that.

I was pointing out the contradiction though, that people would claim they like WSoM but have double standards on the issue.

And yes, things like Menzen and the Dora are unique to Reach, but there are plenty of other great things that make the game special. Furiten, Reach, the hand list, the limit system, the list goes on.

The afore-mentioned contradiction still stands, I think.

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Re:What Do You Think of the WSoM Rules?

Post by iandstanley » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:29 pm

From a quick read ... Nice simple rules

But the devil is in the details....

As most have said it appears unbalanced .... it is simpler than MCR but MCR is more balanced

I do prefer furiten rules of the japanese because it keeps all players on the ball and reduces the effect of a run of lucky draws helping the player who is not thinking ahead (I think thats probably the Shogi player in me).

I like the fact that it\'s dropped the pay all ... which has irritated me for years.

The biggest issue I have with WSoM is that it encourages going out over defensive play and can encourage wrecklessness in the inexperienced player.

If I was going to edit a second edition, I would look at:

1. Balancing the hands more
2. Losing discarder pays all

And then I think it would be quite playable (I can miss out on sacred discards, if I must, after all I do with MCR)

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