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I am one of those who play both MCR and Riichi, and who can\'t seem to decide which ruleset they prefer. Mahjong is a game of patterns and defense, and MCR ignores the defense while Riichi ignores the pattern part (I know MCR does have an element of defense and Riichi has an element of patterns, but these are minor aspects compared to the other). I have been thinking of how to make a ruleset that includes both elements in more equal portions, thus possibly creating a game that requires even greater skill.

The idea I have come up with is this (it is purely a thought experiment. I don\'t expect to ever actually play using these rules):

The basic scoring system is Riichi, and all rules about furiten from Riichi are in effect. This should ensure that defensive play is rewarded when called for.
However, there is no dora. Instead, a lot of the hands from MCR are added at approiate values (typically, hands worth 6-12 points will be 1 yaku, hands worth 16-32 points 2 yaku. Some patterns will be worth more on a concealed hand, and patterns that are generally easier to defend against should be worth a bit more).
Also, to make sure building a hand is not quite as easy as it is in Riichi, some of the patterns will not give a yaku, but a virtual yaku. A virtual yaku works like a dora, except that if you have at least 2 virtual yaku on a hand, then they count as yaku.
Patterns that should be virtual yaku include all simples on an open hand, pung of dragons, seat wind or prevalent wind, mixed shifted chows on an open hand and possibly tilehog (I can\'t quite decide about the tilehog).


I am probably forgetting some of the ideas I had, but I can add those when I remember them. Comments? Would the rules work the way I expect, or have I missed something?

The problem is that both ruleset is defined , and polished and there is really no reason to modify them in a large scale i think. I myself prefer that riichi has just a few hands they are easy to memorize and by this way you can guess what pattern the other player is trying to get by their discards and called things. I prefer riichi as it is, although some hands are a bit underrated (like chanta). But the only thing that needs to be done is removing the red and ura dora-s and other luck dependent things (which are pretty much ARE removed in professional matches.) I think you should consider playing MCR and riichi, each has it\'s own merits. There is a reason why in the world series of mahjong there is an mcr and a riichi event.

I\'ve thought a lot about this kind of thing in the past.

At first I really wanted to get rid of dora, but then I started to realize that having points linked to specific tiles (not patterns) actually adds a lot to the strategy.

I think an interesting non-obvious reason for this is because it is easier to read hands and waits for a few specific tiles (i.e. dora use, red five use) than it is to read whole yaku (which on closed hands is usually more guesswork, especially when you have a large number of allowable hands). Also, with red fives and dora you can see on the board or in your hand if they are available/likely to be used and to make value decisions off that. With closed patterns you can\'t really do this kind of check. Furthermore, playing with doras changes the fundamental discard offensive/defensive order of tiles each round.

I think the best way to create a fusion ruleset would be to slightly modify the Reach rules. Add +1 han to the rarer hands (such as itsu, chanta, sanshoku) and maybe add a two-YAKU minimum on all hands.

Another middle way is to make the dealer continue sticks worth 1500 and make any round with dealer continue sticks at stake winnable only with a two-YAKU minimum. Otherwise you can always win with one YAKU, but the dealer remains and the dealer sticks increase.

i.e. haku-dora-dora-dora is still a 1-yaku hand, as is toi-toi.

Ruro wrote:There is a reason why in the world series of mahjong there is an mcr and a riichi event.

Um... in the WSoM they use WSoM rules, not MCR.

Well yea but it\'s a chinese variant at WSoM :P Maybe it\'s a blunt way to put it but it resembles more to MCR then riichi does or am i wrong again ? :P (I didn\'t do any research i just gathered my memories about WSoM and MCR so i can be wrong.)

Read Alan Kwan\'s website, and look up his old rec.games.mahjong newsgroup posts where he described his philosophies. As far as I can tell or remember, he was working based on HKOS, Shanghai New Style, and Taiwanese for his thinking on the best patterns to include, and the simplest scoring to implement - not MCR. Use keyword \"zung jung\" since that\'s his original name for it.

When switching to MCR from Riichi I find that the transition is relatively seamless until I notice a situation which would be Furiten and then I have to concentrate a lot harder on the MCR game to keep the Riichi rules clear of my head allowing me to play.

Of all the rules I miss the Furiten rule the most. In my opinion it is the rule that brings the most to the game affecting strategy, defensive moves, offense/defense balance, and forward thinking/planning etc.

If I was in charge of the next version of MCR (and there\'s no chance of that), it\'s the one rule I would like to have included.

Also, to make sure building a hand is not quite as easy as it is in Riichi, some of the patterns will not give a yaku, but a virtual yaku. A virtual yaku works like a dora, except that if you have at least 2 virtual yaku on a hand, then they count as yaku.

:huh: :S
Try explaining that to a newcomer.

I think you should consider playing MCR and riichi, each has it\'s own merits.

That\'s certainly the route I have taken.

I play Riichi online and with my brother.

I play MCR with the kids .... I have yet to find a MCR online that is (1) free and (2) easy to use, popular and not full of robots. Any ideas where I can play MCR online for free would be appreciated (I am currently out of work so that precludes any subscription sites)


The good thing about MCR is that it can merge and play well with trad chinese rules :ohmy: ..... Before anyone gets really ill or puls their hair out let me explain.

I have three kids .. two in their teens and one 10 year old. I ensure that myself and the older two play full MCR rules whilst allowing my youngest to win on a set of any valid trad chinese hand. Thus allowing her to learn the game without worrying too much about combining lumps of hands together.

The problem with locking up possibilities on a game, like in Riichi, is that eventually (like in chess) you become a mathematical thinker, where every possibility becomes aparent and only a few things can be done.

I won't state I would prefer MCR over Riichi, or a total open game with lots of jokers,
but I would like to have random elements on a game where complexity remains.

Otherwise we are just robots memorizing patterns here, and the fun ends.

For I see, and replying to the main question,
I would at least:

1 - keep Furiten,
2 - turn All Simples into a closed hand only
3 - Simplify scoring *puts up armor for predicted attacks on this one...*

Cheers
Luis

I recently read that Alan Kwan was a Riichi player when he started on Zung Jung. The additive system seems to also have been adopted by MCR. Riichi also figured into the ZJ scoring. Two Double Runs does not appear in MCR, for instance.