noob question: how should i play in this situation

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AyanamiSan
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noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by AyanamiSan » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:15 am

Hi, i have a question about last round in my recent game
http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012061510gm-0 ... bf90a&tw=2

(yeah, i mean 4th south round of the east-only game... that what caused me to stop thinking, since i've wanted to sleep already and that game seemed to never end)
obviously i've tried for fastest possible hand, with chun as yaku. Should i discard something else there? could i have seen that 4pin is a dangerous tile?
Maybe i shoul'd have played there entirely different?

As a note, im very beginner, i play mahjong for about a week now, so any thoughts and advices are appreciated :)
i really can't read discards yet... :(

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Re: noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by Kyuu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:28 am

Well, y'get credit for getting to tenpai, while someone called riichi. But, that credit is immediately lost after dying. :P Granted, I still do some stupid things with my gameplay, of which, I am not open to discuss at the moment. :lol: :lol:

Back in my beginner days, I would have made the same mistake: being overzealous and trying to get to tenpai ASAP, even while someone called riichi. Of course, there's that added pressure of South round being a sudden death overtime phase.

Nowadays, it is not a worthwhile endeavor. In that South 4 hand, it was better to just not bother with the 6-dot and see what you draw next. To buy time, drop the 1-bam and then maybe 2-bam and see how things really go afterwards. Even so, unfortunately, time wasn't in your favor here.

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Re: noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by AyanamiSan » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:54 am

eh, i was a bit too greedy and too sleepy, seems i just should go with 2nd place (that i'd have if he won tsumo/ ron not of someone else, or if he was only one with tenpai on exhaustive draw)
i really didn't expect that game to take so long /yet longer since everyone been using all their available time for move... an i just wanted fast game before going to sleep ;) /

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Re: noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by Iapetus » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:50 pm

It wasn't a terrible idea to go all aggressive against the dealer, since you can see they need only 2000 points to win and should do damaten if they can. Barring a riichi dora 3, you shouldn't have lost the game from a play-in. The riichi declaration itself was quite a bad play, especially as it caused the dealer to fall below you. So really, you were risking falling to third while creating a chance to take first, and at that rank, it's the effective way to gain points. The problem is that you wouldn't have won the game with just a chun nomi. So defense is correct here with all the risks of the 3 and 4th place hands and the dora 3 possibility added. Then again, maybe the simple possibility of winning is worth that much down there... ugh, I can't think from a 5th kyu perspective.


Other comments:
E1: You discarded that useful 3sou too early, although you did get a chinitsu so it wasn't that useful in hindsight.
E2: Nice junchan, but you should have just started defending after the riichi and with that honitsu to the right. All calls after the riichi were useless, since you lost your yaku. You should have kept the second 9pin too.
E2H1: You should have gone for a riichi possible dora here, not the open hatsu. The hatsu should have left the hand on your second turn.
E3: You broke your sanshoku, even though you won thanks to that.
E3H1: You simply shouldn't have discarded that 1man at that point. After the backfire, you proceeded to ruin your hand with overkill calling.
E4: You should have ponned the 7pin. Tanyao dora 3 is always worth going open, ESPECIALLY because it would have won you the game right there!
S1: Making a honitsu there wasn't warranted, those pins were set up for ittsuu. Drop the honors faster.
S2: North is a better wait, since opponents don't expect it. The 1man gives them less to defend with too.
S3: I liked the riichi here.

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Re: noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by AyanamiSan » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:36 pm

thanks for all the replies
here a few questions (WWYD-like ones), hope i won't bother anyone too much asking so much just after registering on the forums ;)
lapetus wrote: (...) You should have kept the second 9pin too.
i see the reasonning, but in that case what should i discard? just let go of the 1m?
situation, so people won't have to search in replay:
east2, i'm south, dora: red-dra
1-dot 1-dot 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 7-dot 9-dot 9-dot 1-bam 3-bam draw: 1-crak already called: 9-crak 7-crak 8-crak
lapetus wrote:You simply shouldn't have discarded that 1man at that point.
hmm... again, what to discard in this case? 3p?9m? something other?
east 3h1, i'm the dealer, dora: green-dra
1-crak 3-crak 5-crak 6-crak 9-crak 3-dot 6-dot 7-dot 3-bam 5-bam 5-bam 7-bam 9-bam draw: 7-dot
lapetus wrote:You should have ponned the 7pin.
eh, i'm just not used to kuitan-ari, if i go open tanyao i have always remind myself i play kuitan-ari right now...
again, what to discard? drop 3m, for tenpai on 47m wait?
East 4, im north, dora: 7-crak
if i ponned, it would be:
2-crak 2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 5-crak 6-crak 6-crak 7-crak 5-bam 6-bam 7-bam (pon) 7-dot 7-dot 7-dot
5-bam and one of the 5-crak are red
lapetus wrote:North is a better wait, since opponents don't expect it.
ugh, just didnt notice... it would be 2m/north shanpon wait...

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Re: noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by WaveMaster » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:44 pm

I can't seem to access Tenhou from this computer at the moment, but I'll respond to the tiles you posted. Be aware that I'm not taking account defense, or what tiles have already been discarded, and these are both things which would normally influence the decision.
AyanamiSan wrote:east2, i'm south, dora: red-dra
1-dot 1-dot 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 7-dot 9-dot 9-dot 1-bam 3-bam draw: 1-crak already called: 9-crak 7-crak 8-crak
Just from this I would drop the 1m. The reason is that you already have a likely pair with the 1p, so if you want to use the 1m, you're going to have to turn it into a set. That means you'll have to draw one more helpful tile yourself, and then draw or call the third to make 111m or 123m. With the 799p, you're only one call away from either having 789p or 999p. However, if the other two 9p have already been discarded, then it may make more sense to discard one of your 9p.
AyanamiSan wrote:east 3h1, i'm the dealer, dora: green-dra
1-crak 3-crak 5-crak 6-crak 9-crak 3-dot 6-dot 7-dot 3-bam 5-bam 5-bam 7-bam 9-bam draw: 7-dot
I would discard 9m. It's a terminal, which means there are no helpful tiles to one side of it that you can draw, and the nearest tile that you have (6m), can't connect to it. It's the least useful tile in your hand right now. The 3p is better because it can turn into a two sided wait if you draw either 2p or 4p, but nothing will turn the 9m into a two sided wait.
AyanamiSan wrote:East 4, im north, dora: 7-crak
if i ponned, it would be:
2-crak 2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 5-crak 6-crak 6-crak 7-crak 5-bam 6-bam 7-bam (pon) 7-dot 7-dot 7-dot
5-bam and one of the 5-crak are red
Yeah, I would pon the 7p and drop 3m, waiting for 47m. If you get 7m, it's mangan, if you get 4m, it's still practically mangan (30 fu, 4 han = 7700/7900). I sympathize with forgetting whether the table is kuitan ari or nashi; I can't count how many times I've ended up with a dead hand because I forgot I was playing with different rules.

EDIT: @below

The 7m is the dora.
Last edited by WaveMaster on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by Referee » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:03 pm

no, the 4m and the 7m give the same value. Iipeikou is void on an open hand.

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Re: noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by RegalStar » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:16 pm

With your hand on south 4, I would've bailed straight away upon seeing riichi. If you had a halfway decent hand, it's really a tossup on whether to attack or defend or not, but your hand was worth 1000 at that point, which wouldn't have helped matters even with a riichi=bon. You'd then have to go in west 1, which is still unsure. By bailing it's basically impossible to get to any more, but it's also unlikely that you'll get less than 2nd place.

In fact, I wouldn't have pon'd that Chun at all, because the hand simply isn't worth enough by ponning them.

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Re: noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by Iapetus » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:04 pm

...actually, I don't think Tenhou has shanyu for tonpuusens nor penyu for hanchans. So simply taking the lead there with the chun nomi would have ended the game for the win.

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Re: noob question: how should i play in this situation

Post by WaveMaster » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:20 pm

I'm back on the computer where Tenhou works, and since I'm bored, I'll go over the game and I see if I agree with the other comments.

E1:
Your hand is all over the place because you are half-committing to the flush. For example, on the second go around when you draw 9p, you cut 3s even though it is less useful than 1m. This might make sense if you are going to boldly shoot for the flush; however, the very next draw is a 4s which you keep. Now the 4s is only useful if you can use it in a way that doesn't leave you furiten for the 3s. Later, you draw 5m and discard 8m, which changes your shape in that suit from a middle 6-8 wait to a double sided -56- wait, which is good. However, the very next turn, you draw a useless 1s, and discard 6m. Now you just have two isolated tiles (5m and 1s) that you can't use. If you weren't going to keep the 5m, then why didn't you discard when you drew it?

Late in the game, your hand looks like (dora: 9p):
1-dot 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 4-dot 4-dot 5-dot 6-dot 8-dot 8-dot 9-dot 9-dot :east

and the player across from you cuts 9p. I would have called that and cut the East, as it would leave you tenpai for 1p and 8p. Of course, I say this only looking at your hand, cutting East would have actually dealt in to the player on your left. However, I'm not sure you could have guessed that.

E2:
I hate chanta/junchan, so I'm not sure I can comment unbiased here. I feel like you committed too early to junchan with your first call when the hand still had other possibilities. I also feel like you got rid of the dora too early. Regardless, calling the 4p ruined your hand, as it left you with no yaku. If you did it just to eat your opponent's ippatsu chance... I have no idea whether that's actually useful, but my guess would be no.

E2B1:
Okay. You got rid of the 1p too early when it could still connect with the 3p if you drew 2p. Fortunately you drew 4p later, meaning you didn't need the 1p after all.

E3:
Okay. I feel weird critiquing a hand that won, so I'll leave it at that.

E3B1:
As was mentioned before, dropping the 1m was a mistake. Even so, once it backfired and you drew 2m, you kept the 2m and then broke up the rest of your hand. The hand wasn't well suited to tanyao, because you have a complete 789s set, and the incomplete -23-m set has one side on a terminal (which you have already discarded). When you cut the 1m beside the 3m, you were basically giving up on 2m. Afterwards, you cut the potentially useful 3p instead of 2m. Worse, when you drew 6p, giving you the 6677p shape, you discard it. That shape is pretty useful, especially for this tanyao hand, as you can advance it with 5p, 6p, 7p, or 8p, and all of them are callable. Next, you draw 6m, which is also useful since it lets you call for a third 6m if necessary, but you discard it. You still have the 2m sitting in your hand, potentially leaving you furiten for 1m. When you call the red 5p, you discard 7p afterwards. This is fine with the hand that you had, but if you had not discarded 6p earlier, you would still have a good 67p shape in your hand. By the time you got your opponent's riichi, your hand was so messed up that you should have just defended.

E4:
As was already mentioned, you held back your hand by not calling 7p, and then you discarded them even though they were your likely pair.

S1:
Again, you kind of half-commit to the flush. I would have kept the possibility for using the 4m or 7s open, but I'll leave you to your decision to focus on the flush. However, you do this weird thing where you discard the 7s, and then bring the 6s into your hand. If you aren't going to use the 7s, then how are you planning to use the 6s? Thanks to that, you end up having the dangerous 6s still in your hand when your opponents declares riichi.

S2:
Nice. Choosing the 3m wait over the 2m, North wait isn't that big a deal.

S3:
It was unfortunate that you later drew 1s but couldn't add junchan since you were in riichi. However, I think the riichi was warranted.

S4:
Here it's just a matter of hand values. While I won't fault you for battling an opponent's riichi when you were looking at massive hands like some of those full-flushes; in this case the hand you're fighting for is just 1 han. You opponent's hand is certain to be worth more than yours, and is much closer to tenpai then yours. You should have defended.

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