Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

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Mauro
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Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Mauro » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:47 am

It's some game that no matter what I do I can't win: seven games, five fourth places, one third. Out of 79 hands, I won five. This is way out of my normal results and I don't think I changed my way of play, so I was wondering: did I do some huge mistake I'm missing?

http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2016020417gm-0 ... 6af57&tw=0

In South 3/0 it'd have been better to discard 5-dot or 8-dot; I discarded 1-dot because it's more difficult to reach tenpai, but if I reach it I have a better wait and pinfu, maybe tanyao if I draw 4-crak. Not sure it was the right thing to do.

Same hand, when I discarded 7-dot I think 4-bam 8-bam would have been better. Still, I can't see huge mistakes, nothing worth of winning so little in these last games.

Krabman
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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Krabman » Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:42 pm

I'm only 2 Dan too! Here are my thoughts:

E2:
5th turn - I think you could've kept that Dora and discard 9p in hopes of building a wait around lower Souzu. 5689 shape has an overlapping wait of 7.
With such an aggressive Oya (Mangan/Haneman), that 5p tanki Riichi was MUCH too risky in my opinion. I would've just given up that cheap hand.

E4:
2nd turn - 8p would've been a more efficient discard in hopes for Chanta. Sha looks like an obvious pair to me. Lone 2-8 tiles can be very useful in early game. Lonely 3 gives you a double sided wait with 2 or 4. That's 8 tiles!

S1:
I would've kept that 2p just because it's next to Dora and you really need points. I'd suggest 8m there.

S3:
I think you did just the right thing.

You were a bit unlucky, especially in E3... It's great that you keep asking people for advice! Always question and analyze the way you play, even when you win! I'm sure some other stronger players here will share their insight and we'll both learn something here!

Here's some useful stuff that will help you improve your skills:

http://riichi.dynaman.net
http://justanotherjapanesemahjongblog.blogspot.com
http://osamuko.com/category/mahjong-theory

Mauro
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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Mauro » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:09 pm

Krabman wrote:E2:
5th turn - I think you could've kept that Dora and discard 9p in hopes of building a wait around lower Souzu
Why not 1m? At least you don't lose 7p, and if you draw 2m you can use 55m as pair without being furiten.
With such an aggressive Oya (Mangan/Haneman), that 5p tanki Riichi was MUCH too risky in my opinion. I would've just given up that cheap hand
Just to be sure I understand what you're saying: you mean with those melds oya could have mangan/haneman, so riiching on a 5p tanki was too risky because I can't defend against him?
S1:
I would've kept that 2p just because it's next to Dora and you really need points. I'd suggest 8m there
Yup; I don't know how, but somehow in that discard I forgot 3p was dora, I realized it after discarding 2p :shock:
I already read all of those, thanks! Now I'm reviewing some part of Daina's book to memorize them.

Thanks for your help! If I didn't do major mistakes it's a good thing - winning some more hands would have been better, but at least I'm making fewer mistakes.

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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Krabman » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:04 pm

It depends on how you look at the shape 134556. I see that as a complete pair and a ryankan, therefore 1-3-5 & 456. By discarding 1m you'd weaken the shape. It's better to keep it together as it's still early. If you draw 1m you will have a pair, a set and a ryanmen! 2m will also give you two sets. Just think about the possibilities! :D

You don't lose the chance for 7p. You already have a 47 wait. That's why 9p is a better choice.

I'm still not sure about E2-2. You had 2 Dora but it was getting late and you were still iishanten. Neither your Tanyao nor Pinfu were confirmed. You can assume that you'd complete 78m first. In the worst scenario you'd draw 9m and end up with a bad kanchan wait. Riichi Dora 2 with a bad wait is not worth the gamble. That 1s wasn't a suji or anything so it was dangerous, especially since kamicha had discarded 3s which could've come out of 233 shape. Matagi suji are not 100% accurate but they show which tiles CAN be more dangerous.

You had enough tiles for betaori & it was still very early in the game so there was no need to push that iishanten. But, like I said, I'm not sure myself if it's a good analysis.

One thing's for sure - sometimes our hands look really tempting because of Dora but they may actually be not worth pushing.

Yeah, that 5p Riichi was really not worth it. You could call that a major mistake. Oya was 100% tenpai - two melds, Souzu tsumogiri. Dabu Ton, Honitsu, Dora... it turns out he also had Hatsu xD You were really lucky not getting a Ron there.

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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Mauro » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:45 pm

Krabman wrote:It depends on how you look at the shape 134556. I see that as a complete pair and a ryankan, therefore 1-3-5 & 456. By discarding 1m you'd weaken the shape. It's better to keep it together as it's still early. If you draw 1m you will have a pair, a set and a ryanmen! 2m will also give you two sets. Just think about the possibilities!
I'll think more about this: I can see what you're saying, but discarding 9p instead of 1m or 2s means losing 12 tiles of uke-ire; I'll take a look on how the hand could evolve.
I'm still not sure about E2-2. You had 2 Dora but it was getting late and you were still iishanten. Neither your Tanyao nor Pinfu were confirmed. You can assume that you'd complete 78m first. In the worst scenario you'd draw 9m and end up with a bad kanchan wait. Riichi Dora 2 with a bad wait is not worth the gamble. That 1s wasn't a suji or anything so it was dangerous, especially since kamicha had discarded 3s which could've come out of 233 shape. Matagi suji are not 100% accurate but they show which tiles CAN be more dangerous
I don't really use matagi suji and the like, right now, I still have to re-read them: matagi suji are rare early in the game and so early discard could indicate safe tiles, but that 3s was quite close to riichi declaration, so I'm not sure what's more relevant: that it was a 3-7 tile, that it was discarder early in the game (fifth discard), that it was near a riichi declaration (four turns earlier).

(You're right about not losing 7p, my mistake in re-reading the hand.)

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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Mauro » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:55 pm

Also, discarding 1m I don't lose 24m: 34556m, it's a set and a ryanmen (345 56) with a possible head (55); with 2m I get 234 556, while with 4m I get 344 456, both advancing my shanten.

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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Krabman » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:17 pm

I don't always follow suji theories when I play. But it's definitely something to practice if we want to get to Houou someday :mrgreen:

Since kamicha was gettin closer to tenpai with almost every single discard, we could treat that as a "late game" situation which makes matagi suji theory viable. 1s was simply not safe and 3s supported that. Of course, he could've waited for anything, but that 3s was a little hint.

What's more important I think, is your iishanten and unconfirmed Pinfu, Tanyao. It'd be different if you had iishanten with two ryanmen.

The shape could evolve in many ways but I still think that at that point, penchan 89p was the least useful element in your hand.

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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Mauro » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:07 pm

By the way, I was wondering: do you find suji (beside the usual omote) so useful? I rember to have read on Just Another Japanese Mahjong Blog that - according to the author - at least some of them are proven wrong, and don't really affect the risk of the tiles, so he doesn't even explain them.

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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by DdR_Dan » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:59 am

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. :P I didn't read all the other comments so I might say something that was already said before.

East 1: I would discard the 3-dot and then 1-dot , but this is very minor. I think you played this hand really well though.



East 2: When you discard 2-bam dora, I think both 1-crak and 8-dot then 9-dot are possibly better, but I don't think 2-bam is too bad. You might notice the dealer held on to 2 honor tiles over the 4-crak and 1-dot 2-dot , which looks like honitsu so that's another reason to hold the dora (as you can use the other bamboo tiles as well if you draw them, and you don't have to worry about it getting called). Personally, I wouldn't declare riichi but I don't think it's bad to. I think you played this hand fine as well.



East 2 bonus 1: The 8-dot wasn't very useful as 6-dot and 7-dot would go with 5-dot (of course 7 would go better with 8 though). If you are considering hands other than chiitoitsu, you should hold 7-bam cause you can draw around it and use the dora. If you're only thinking of chiitoitsu, you could consider holding red-dra and discarding middle tiles like 5-dot . Once you get a triplet of 4-crak I would discard the 8-dot for sure, and multiple times later on as well I would discard it.
Near the end, you could call the 3-dot with the plan of discarding 4-crak 2-crak , so you have a chance to get to tenpai (safely even).
The last 8-dot discard was risky.



East 2 bonus 2: When you discard 1-crak , it's an interesting decision between that, 3-crak 8-dot and 7-bam / 4-bam . I can't say which is best for sure, so I'll just go off of your choice. After that, you should discard 3-crak as it has very little use. It could be a pair, but when you draw 8-dot you have 2 pairs already. I think both discarding the 1-bam pair and the 4-bam before the 3-crak to be big mistakes. With the two pairs you're one away from tenpai with 2 dora and a chance to draw a good wait around the 4-bam 5-bam 6-bam 7-bam . You can't draw much of a wait around 3-crak because 2-crak is furiten, and the 4567 is better anyway. You actually drew a 5-bam , and would've been one away from tenpai on pinfu, 2 dora, possibly tanyao. Even after the riichi, 3-crak was safe and not very useful to you, but 1-bam wasn't safe.
Of course, you may not have won this hand any way you played it, but you want to make sure you're making good decisions anyway.



East 3: Discarding 1-dot from 1-dot 3-dot was not a good discard. You are one away from tenpai and could get pinfu if you draw 2-dot . Because the 6 bamboos are your pair, you should discard 4 bamboo. 7-dot is more useful than 4-bam , especially when the 6 is separated out as a pair. In the same way, 3-crak in 2-crak 3-crak 3-crak 4-crak is more useful than 4-bam so I would discard 4 bamboo there as well (think of both the 4 bamboo and 3 crak as lone tiles). I don't like discarding 7-dot , but with three 6, three 8, and a 9 circle out and the chance at sanshoku I guess it's fine.


East 4: I don't have much to say here.


South 1: When you discard 2-dot I would recommend 8-bam (even if you draw 7 bam it's not completely wasted, and you can use the dora). If you're going to pick 2-dot though, you should go with 8-crak instead. As for the actual result, there's nothing you could do about that.


South 2: Nothing to say

South 2 bonus 1: I think you played this hand just fine.

South 3: I would hold 1-bam for sanshoku chance and discard red dragon. It's unlikely but it's desperation time.

South 4: I would call pon on the south wind and hope to win with 2 dora, double south wind off of the person across from you.


You can very easily get really unlucky or really lucky for a while without playing much better or worse. Recently, I got like 7 last places out of 12 matches in the tokujou room, despite playing in the same way that got me to 7th dan, and after that, my past 21 games have been 6 first, 7 second, 8 third, no last place, without making any major changes. All you can do is try to make the best decisions possible...

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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Mauro » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:12 pm

DdR_Dan wrote:I hope you don't mind me jumping in here
Not at all, thanks :D
East 1: I would discard the 3-dot and then 1-dot , but this is very minor
To have a safer tile to discard later?

East 2/1: I think I kept 8 thinking about chiitoitsu (if I get tenpai, waiting on 8 is better than waiting on 7), and discarded red-dra because I wasn't thinking only about chiitoitsu; maybe I tried too hard to keep open to them both, and should have decided if favor chiitoitsu (so, keeping red-dra) or another hand (so keeping 7-bam)?

East 2/2: you're right on 3-crak, I should have discarded it: having three pairs I choose to discard one, but since 3-crak is already in a set it's not really a pair.
East 3: [...] I don't like discarding 7-dot , but with three 6, three 8, and a 9 circle out and the chance at sanshoku I guess it's fine
If you chose to discard another tile, which one would you discard?
South 1: When you discard 2-dot I would recommend 8-bam (even if you draw 7 bam it's not completely wasted, and you can use the dora). If you're going to pick 2-dot though, you should go with 8-crak instead
Would you recommend 8-bam also over 8-crak? 8-bam could make a set with 6-bam, while 8-crak is lone.

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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by Krabman » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:40 pm

Mauro wrote:By the way, I was wondering: do you find suji (beside the usual omote) so useful? I rember to have read on Just Another Japanese Mahjong Blog that - according to the author - at least some of them are proven wrong, and don't really affect the risk of the tiles, so he doesn't even explain them.
I'm not at a level high enough to really say but by my logic, I think those suji often make sense. Especially when it comes to open hands. Riichi hands are pretty much impossible to read but player's discards out of an open hand can tell you a lot. You want to pay attention to:

1. discards right after each meld
2. suspicious discards - discarding kanchan, penchan shapes, pairs
3. all late game discards out of hand

That way, seeing what the player calls and discards, you can often figure out his hand shape and even his tenpai wait. And we're actually talking ACCURATE reading. Sounds great but it takes a lot of practice to be able to track all of the information and judge situations on that basis. But it's doable.

So yes, suji theories are not something you can blindly rely on, but they shouldn't be ignored if you want to improve. It's definitely good to be able to utilize them effectively.

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Re: Analysis: Mauro's Games - 05

Post by DdR_Dan » Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:23 am

East 1: I would discard the 3-dot and then 1-dot , but this is very minor
To have a safer tile to discard later?
Yes
East 2/1: I think I kept 8 thinking about chiitoitsu (if I get tenpai, waiting on 8 is better than waiting on 7), and discarded red-dra because I wasn't thinking only about chiitoitsu; maybe I tried too hard to keep open to them both, and should have decided if favor chiitoitsu (so, keeping red-dra) or another hand (so keeping 7-bam)?
In this case I would probably try to go for another hand without discarding any pairs, and if I drew a 5th pair I would commit to chiitoitsu.
East 3: [...] I don't like discarding 7-dot , but with three 6, three 8, and a 9 circle out and the chance at sanshoku I guess it's fine
If you chose to discard another tile, which one would you discard?
I actually play pretty extremely because I usually choose the best chance to win over the most points, have a very low call rate and play really defensive. But, I would discard 8-bam . This might just be my playstyle and not necessarily the best choice.
South 1: When you discard 2-dot I would recommend 8-bam (even if you draw 7 bam it's not completely wasted, and you can use the dora). If you're going to pick 2-dot though, you should go with 8-crak instead
Would you recommend 8-bam also over 8-crak? 8-bam could make a set with 6-bam, while 8-crak is lone.
Because it's 5-bam 6-bam 6-bam 8-bam , the 8 is hard to use. Compare how your hand improves with what you draw:
8-crak 5-bam 6-bam 6-bam
5-bam 6-bam 6-bam 8-bam
In the first, if you draw 7-crak that's really helpful and 9-crak is helpful but it's not a good wait, and 6-crak too. In the second these tiles are no longer helpful (except the 6 in your full hand).
If you draw 4-bam , in the second one, in your actual hand the 8-bam is like a lone tile because 6-bam 6-bam is your only pair. There's a small chance of a straight but you'd give up your pair, and you can also draw a pair somewhere else to have 6-bam 6-bam 8-bam as a second pair + wait, but otherwise 8-bam isn't very helpful.
If you draw 7-bam , in both you end up with another set, but you don't have a pair in either. In the first in your whole hand you end up with 2 sets, a 2 sided wait, a single wait and no pair. In the second you end up with 2 sets, two 2 sided waits, a single wait and no pair. The second is better, but on the wait you draw a pair on, you'll likely give up the wait for the pair in the end, even if it's a two sided wait.
So, by keeping 8-bam over 8-crak you lose out on some character tiles without gaining that much.

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