How to deal when there are 2 winners

Guides and beginner's help. If you're new to mahjong, this forum is for you. All questions are welcome - don't hesitate to ask.

Moderator: Shirluban

Post Reply
xipeyic154
Fresh Reacher
Fresh Reacher
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:53 am

How to deal when there are 2 winners

Post by xipeyic154 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:05 am

Dears,

I have played a lot of mahjong games with friends. But for the first time, we were confronted to a situation where nobody knew the answer...

Two of us were in tenpai. And both were waiting for the same tile:
3-crak

Player 1 was waiting for it to complete his hand with a chow
4-crak 5-crak
Player 2 was waiting for it to complete his hand with a pong
3-crak 3-crak

When the Player 3 put the tile in front of him, the two players 1 & 2 claimed Mahjong. Nobody knew what to do. We looked in the rules but we didn't find how to deal with that situation. Finally, we decided to accept both mahjong and each player received the points corresponding to their hand.
But, is it the correct way to do it? And, are the rules similar for Chinese and Japanese mahjong?

Many thanks in advance for your replies.

User avatar
Shirluban
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 770
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:53 pm
Location: Svartalfheim
Contact:

Re: How to deal when there are 2 winners

Post by Shirluban » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:54 am

Hello and welcome!

Some rules allow the two (or even three) players to win, each winning hand being scored separately.

Other rules give priority to the winner closer to the discarder, in turn order. For example, if East discards the winning tile and West and North claim it for a win, then West is the only winner. West's hand is scored and paid, but North gets nothing. This is known as "head bump" or "hatama hane".

More rarely, a few rules give priority to the faster player to make their winning declaration.

In case three players win on the same tile, some rules cancel the hand.

You can see an overview on which Japanese rule do what on this page: https://ooyamaneko.net/mahjong/rratw/
Look for the "Double ron" and "Triple ron".
For Chinese and other rules, MCR uses head bump, I don't remember for Zung Jung/WSOM and american mahjong. Chinese Classical scores even non-winning hands. I don't think there are many other formal rules, so it may vary from one playing group to another.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

Referee
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:24 pm

Re: How to deal when there are 2 winners

Post by Referee » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:52 am

Like shirluban explained perfectly well, this is one of the many rules you'll have to pick how do you want to play. Of course, if you are playing in a tournament, you'll have to do as the tournament ruleset says, but for friendly games like you say, just pick one of the options and make that the rule.

I personally like that all rons are paid, even if it stings when it happens to me, but that's part of the game. Some time ago there was a video around of someone who went into riichi, then several kans happened and they all showed the same indicator, 8-pin IIRC, then the poor guy discarded a 9-pin and it was triple called for three yakuman or something like that.

User avatar
or2az
Silver Boarder
Silver Boarder
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:10 pm
Location: USA

Re: How to deal when there are 2 winners

Post by or2az » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:14 am

On browsing the link above regarding riichi rules, provided by Shirluban, I was surprised to see so many X's for Agari Yame.
(and for bankruptcy too)
I employ both rules in all four of my mahjong groups and the ladies really love it and find it very exciting when it occurs.
We had one occasion where the player in 4th place kept winning or was tenpai and she eventually won the match.
Stole it away from me and they all loved it!
Almost didn't happen as another lady was close to being bankrupt and that would have ended the match (and preserved my victory). This is exciting stuff!!!

Anyway, I never posted in "So....What rules do you play with?" (2012, before my time) or "So...How do you like to play? (2017);
So I thought I would list some of them here.
( Learning the Japanese words has also been fun for them)
ATAMA HANE, double/triple ron, one winner only, closest to discarder in turn order. We like to keep the scores close.
No red fives. Dora and ura dora--yes
KUIKAE-(chow switching) NOT ALLOWED. They seem to think they do this but I tell them they don't, cause I would notice!
KUITAN- open simples-ALLOWED
ATOZUKE--ALLOWED (winning tile yields the yaku)
RENCHAN (continuances) Win/Tenpai, East and South rounds.
BANKRUPTCY- Game Ends, don't like negative scores.
We start with 25,000 and need to reach 30,000 to win.
Otherwise, a complete West round, no sudden death.
Also, PON takes precedence over CHI (common sense time limit)

As far as abortive draws, no one has ever called one yet, but the option is there for
1) Four wind barrage
2) Four riichi on the same hand
3) Nine or more different terminals and honor tiles.
(They are aware of the Kokushimusou option)

Finally, we do use a few of the optional yaku, although only the latter has occurred so far.
Nagashi Mangan-all terminal/honor discards, none called
Shiisan Puta--13 unrelated tiles
Paa Renchan- we use 8 honba on the table (I know, I know)
San Renko- three consecutive pungs, same suit.
(Many of you don't like this one, but I do, and it's occurred twice so far, the last time stacked with San Ankou and Toi-Toi)

I guess that enough for now, comments are appreciated.
TAKE CARE AND STAY HEALTHY.

User avatar
Ozball
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:55 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: How to deal when there are 2 winners

Post by Ozball » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:56 am

or2az wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:14 am
On browsing the link above regarding riichi rules, provided by Shirluban, I was surprised to see so many X's for Agari Yame.
(and for bankruptcy too)
I employ both rules in all four of my mahjong groups and the ladies really love it and find it very exciting when it occurs.
We had one occasion where the player in 4th place kept winning or was tenpai and she eventually won the match.
Stole it away from me and they all loved it!
Almost didn't happen as another lady was close to being bankrupt and that would have ended the match (and preserved my victory). This is exciting stuff!!!
The reason behind this is that a lot of the rulesets on the (at least in the first/left half) are tournament/league focused rulesets. All the way up to 101, after which you start getting either Jansou (like Marchao), and western rulesets where Agari-yame is more common.

Tournament rulesets usually don't allow agari-yame since usually the points you get will matter. So allowing first to just end it if they are in front, denies other players a chance to catch up even some points, and change their placings, since a change from even 3rd to 2nd can be a huge point swing with the Uma (eg -5 to +5 is still a +10 point swing on a league table, which is equivalent to 10,000 points). So my understanding is that the thinking is, it's not fair to the other players to be able to end the game early, just because the last dealer is in front.
or2az wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:14 am
San Renko- three consecutive pungs, same suit.
(Many of you don't like this one, but I do, and it's occurred twice so far, the last time stacked with San Ankou and Toi-Toi)
There is an interesting case with this yaku if you also play with the 一色三順 - Iisousanshun yaku which is three of the same sequence in the same suit (basically ipeikou + one more of the same). If you end up with a hand with say...

1-crak 1-crak 1-crak 2-crak 2-crak 2-crak 3-crak 3-crak 3-crak 5-bam 6-bam :south :south Tsumo: 7-bam

The it becomes a question of if you score that as Iisousanshun, or San Renko. Usually one will score the higher value, and while Iisousanshun is a higher base value (3 han vs San Renko's 2 han), as mentioned San Renko can stack with San Ankou, which could mean that scoring it as San Renko instead of Iisousanshun, would result in a higher score (and therefor you would score it as such). (Throw a chance of Pinfu into the mix on Iisousannshun and it can get really confusing :lol: )

It's just something I found interesting about that yaku when I looked into some Local Yaku when Mahjong Soul did their local yaku thing a while back :mrgreen:
"Furiten is the most holiest!" - Garthe Nelson

Online Ranks
Tenhou Rating: Ozball - 1608 - 2nd dan


Old Ranks
MFC: オズボール - Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Master
MFC JPML Rank: 3rd kyu
Ron2 Rating: Ozball - 1335 League: Bronze

User avatar
or2az
Silver Boarder
Silver Boarder
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:10 pm
Location: USA

Re: How to deal when there are 2 winners

Post by or2az » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:37 am

So my understanding is that the thinking is, it's not fair to the other players to be able to end the game early, just because the last dealer is in front.
But is it fair to extend the game just because the last dealer is fortunate enough to win the last hand.
That's like penalizing him for winning by saying "the game will only end when you lose a hand."
(and he could end up losing the match)

I don't see agari yame as ending the game EARLY.
I see agari yame as ending it ON TIME.

User avatar
Ozball
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:55 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: How to deal when there are 2 winners

Post by Ozball » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 pm

or2az wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:37 am
But is it fair to extend the game just because the last dealer is fortunate enough to win the last hand.
That's like penalizing him for winning by saying "the game will only end when you lose a hand."
(and he could end up losing the match)

I don't see agari yame as ending the game EARLY.
I see agari yame as ending it ON TIME.
While I understand your thinking, there is no other point in the game where the dealer is allowed to pass on their dealership if they are in first place and win a hand. If you happen to be the dealer during South 3, and you win a hand bringing you to first, you're not allowed to pass your dealership. So in all cases, you're not allowed to pass your dealership unless you "lose" a hand. You could also be 50,000 points ahead of second place, and be dealer (in a round other than South 4), but you're still not allowed to pass your dealership unless you're not in tenpai for a hand, so why should South 4 be any different?
"Furiten is the most holiest!" - Garthe Nelson

Online Ranks
Tenhou Rating: Ozball - 1608 - 2nd dan


Old Ranks
MFC: オズボール - Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Master
MFC JPML Rank: 3rd kyu
Ron2 Rating: Ozball - 1335 League: Bronze

User avatar
or2az
Silver Boarder
Silver Boarder
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:10 pm
Location: USA

Re: How to deal when there are 2 winners

Post by or2az » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 pm

there is no other point in the game where the dealer is allowed to pass on their dealership if they are in first place and win a hand........... so why should South 4 be any different ?

I believe South 4 is different because it is the hand that satisfies the requirements for a complete japanese mahjong match. (see below)

And, after more research........if there are time constraints, shouldn't agari yame be allowed, as well as bankruptcy?
Disallowing both adds more time to the match...... which is perhaps what tournaments are aiming for.

Thanks for your input, always appreciated, just like in years past

From Barts Guide;
The standard length for a match under modern Japanese rules is two rounds. Each round is comprised of four hands, although extra ones can be added.

Since there are four hands per round and four winds, each person will play as each of the seat-winds at least once per round and therefore each player gets one turn at being dealer each round. Exceptions to this would be if a match ended early due either to bankruptcy or to time constraints in a tournament context.

xipeyic154
Fresh Reacher
Fresh Reacher
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:53 am

Re: How to deal when there are 2 winners

Post by xipeyic154 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:57 am

Dears,

Many thanks to all of you for your replies. I though that there was only one rule but as I see, it really depends.

Thanks again to all of you.

Post Reply