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and 
WWYD 2014-12-01
Moderator: Shirluban
WWYD 2014-12-01
Came across this hand today and thought it would be fun to post it here to get other people's opinions because I genuinely can't figure out which discard is best. Just in case it's not clear It's hanchan-sen, east 2, dora is and
and 
Re: WWYD 2014-12-01
It's early in the match, scores are close, and without analyzing this for an hour, here's where I would like this hand to end up.
(or )
That means one of those dora (red 5 or the 6) has got to go. But when?
If I intend to make a set with the , I need two discards ready to go, like the and the .
If I draw the
or some good dots early, or a connector to that , maybe san shoku is not going to happen, but there would be lots of chows, and pinfu.
Getting the
early would allow me to ditch the , and add tanyao to the mix, but as for right now,
I don't want a pung of them, so my discard right now would be one of the.
I suspect my next good tile will determine which way I will go, or make my next choice for a discard a bit more complicated.
(or )That means one of those dora (red 5 or the 6) has got to go. But when?
If I intend to make a set with the
, I need two discards ready to go, like the and the .If I draw the
or some good dots early, or a connector to that , maybe san shoku is not going to happen, but there would be lots of chows, and pinfu.Getting the
early would allow me to ditch the , and add tanyao to the mix, but as for right now,I don't want a pung of them, so my discard right now would be one of the
.I suspect my next good tile will determine which way I will go, or make my next choice for a discard a bit more complicated.
Re: WWYD 2014-12-01
I think cutting the red is best here. Your main goal here should be to get another another ryanmen wait. The shape is the most valuable towards this end and cannot be discarded. Comparing the doras and , is more valuable since has overlapping effective tiles with the wait. Comparing and , has 2 more tiles for good shape and drawing is not bad and gives a chance at sanshoku (and option to call for tenpai).
Also, drawing the
gives you worse 1 shanten shape because of overlapping effective tiles.
Discarding to fixate on sanshoku is a mistake since it will worsen your 2 shanten shape a lot.
There is no need to sacrifice tile efficiency for value here, since your hand already has a lot of value, probably riichi pinfu dora 1 is the minimum, and there is also kan dora in play.
Edit: looking at this more closely, drawing gives you insane good shape 1 shanten, so I change my answer to I don't know 
all look pretty even to me now.
Looking this over for a long time, I think I would discard , my thinking is drawing after tossing or is not that great anyway, while drawing or 
after discarding are not complete backfires (but still pretty bad). The backfires for and would be more painful I think, keeping in mind they're both dora also. In addition, if I discard or and draw , most likely would be the next to go anyway. This is a difficult WWYD, and I don't think there is a clear cut best discard.
is best here. Your main goal here should be to get another another ryanmen wait. The shape is the most valuable towards this end and cannot be discarded. Comparing the doras and , is more valuable since has overlapping effective tiles with the wait. Comparing and , has 2 more tiles for good shape and drawing is not bad and gives a chance at sanshoku (and option to call for tenpai). Also, drawing the
gives you worse 1 shanten shape because of overlapping effective tiles.Discarding
to fixate on sanshoku is a mistake since it will worsen your 2 shanten shape a lot.There is no need to sacrifice tile efficiency for value here, since your hand already has a lot of value, probably riichi pinfu dora 1 is the minimum, and there is also kan dora in play.
Edit: looking at this more closely, drawing
gives you insane good shape 1 shanten, so I change my answer to I don't know all look pretty even to me now.Looking this over for a long time, I think I would discard
, my thinking is drawing after tossing or is not that great anyway, while drawing or after discarding are not complete backfires (but still pretty bad). The backfires for and would be more painful I think, keeping in mind they're both dora also. In addition, if I discard or and draw , most likely would be the next to go anyway. This is a difficult WWYD, and I don't think there is a clear cut best discard.Re: WWYD 2014-12-01
I voted since you are not expecting any formation of pairs from
Red shouldn't be discarded. Tile efficiency of and is the same and you kill sanshoku though its not the main point to be considered.
Manzu are likely to be easily to be drawn as per what I can see. This is because the player on your left has very few manzu. By pure chances, its most possible that he is on souzu honitsu since you hold very few of them.
After the discard of , if you form a mentsu from , do prioritise discarding (if early) if you are to choose between red vs (if my guess is right that he is on souzu honitsu) Don't worry if he pon the . You have a monster hand to fight with him. Plus, it is not easy to complete a honitsu hand with a ponned of such a middle tile. When both of you guys are in tenpai, you are definitely in advantage since the players will definitely defend against the honitsu player.
since you are not expecting any formation of pairs from Red
shouldn't be discarded. Tile efficiency of and is the same and you kill sanshoku though its not the main point to be considered. Manzu are likely to be easily to be drawn as per what I can see. This is because the player on your left has very few manzu. By pure chances, its most possible that he is on souzu honitsu since you hold very few of them.
After the discard of
, if you form a mentsu from , do prioritise discarding (if early) if you are to choose between red vs (if my guess is right that he is on souzu honitsu) Don't worry if he pon the . You have a monster hand to fight with him. Plus, it is not easy to complete a honitsu hand with a ponned of such a middle tile. When both of you guys are in tenpai, you are definitely in advantage since the players will definitely defend against the honitsu player.Re: WWYD 2014-12-01
Just a few questions; I'm trying to understand this better.
? There are 6 of them out there with lots of tiles remaining.
Also;
Why can't you expect to get a pair from thesince you are not expecting any formation of pairs from
? There are 6 of them out there with lots of tiles remaining. Also;
How does tossing the red 5 kill sanshoku?......and......Where did that 6 crack come from?Red
Re: WWYD 2014-12-01
or2az wrote:Just a few questions; I'm trying to understand this better.Why can't you expect to get a pair from thesince you are not expecting any formation of pairs from
By I don't expect it means I wouldn't consider leaving space for it at the expense of speed. It doesn't make you any happier when your hand value is high enough.
Also;How does tossing the red 5 kill sanshoku?......and......Where did that 6 crack come from?Red
The sanshoku here is 567, which you would need a five.
Please see the above underlined to your questions.
Also, I went to confirm whether
was the fastest. http://tenhou.net/2/?q=235m1235667p2236s
Indeed, it was.
Re: WWYD 2014-12-01
Okay, one last comment before I put this one to rest.
You would need 4 tiles just to complete a 567 sanshoku. I can get to a 123 sanshoku (and a nice win with 3 dora) with just 3 tiles, and I don't even have to keep the hand closed. Riichi or tsumo would add even more, haneman, I think. This still bothers me. Why isn't it worth going for?
Maybe if I saw what the final shape of the hand you are going for would look like, it might be clearer.
The problem that persists is that I did not want to use the as my pair, and I would like to understand why I should have?
Thanks for your patience.
You would need 4 tiles just to complete a 567 sanshoku. I can get to a 123 sanshoku (and a nice win with 3 dora) with just 3 tiles, and I don't even have to keep the hand closed. Riichi or tsumo would add even more, haneman, I think. This still bothers me. Why isn't it worth going for?
Maybe if I saw what the final shape of the hand you are going for would look like, it might be clearer.
The problem that persists is that I did not want to use the
as my pair, and I would like to understand why I should have?Thanks for your patience.
Re: WWYD 2014-12-01
hahaha No problem. I'm quite patience in explaining. Or rather, I'm quite happy when any player continues to ask and explore.
The problem with 123ssk is that, it is not confirmed and it bet on getting a pair of dora or aka pair which is not so easy. Also the value of your hand can become riichi pinfu dora 1/2
I look at 567 ssk (whether is it ssk or not i don't really care) is because I focus on forming a set with the dora. Your focus is getting a pair of the dora, while mine is a chow set.
The progress of the hand, at best case scenario can be this if is discarded.
It is indeed that 567 ssk is further than 123 but ssk is not the focus in the first place. I don't really need it.
The focus is utilizing either the aka or because riichi pinfu with 2 doras is sufficient especially with the kan ura dora. Therefore, by going the fastest approach, which is , is enough.
The faster approach have more tiles to utilise the dora. They are 
(not to mention also ). so realistically speaking, I'm definitely fine with the following hand.
The above hand is probably the most realistic one. the can be replaced by and discard . the can be replaced by . Really easy to secure pinfu riichi dora 3 as compared to trying to secure a 123ssk whereby you need to form a pair else where (ending up in dora tanki is worst) and trying to get and
The 567ssk is not a focus but just a big bonus. Therefore, your approach is a slightly higher chance of ssk but slower riichi pinfu dora dora tenpai. My approach is very low chance of ssk but with a lot faster (more than 2 times faster) riichi pinfu dora 3 tenpai.
The problem with 123ssk is that, it is not confirmed and it bet on getting a pair of
dora or aka pair which is not so easy. Also the value of your hand can become riichi pinfu dora 1/2 I look at 567 ssk (whether is it ssk or not i don't really care) is because I focus on forming a set with the dora. Your focus is getting a pair of the dora, while mine is a chow set.
The progress of the hand, at best case scenario can be this if
is discarded. It is indeed that 567 ssk is further than 123 but ssk is not the focus in the first place. I don't really need it.
The focus is utilizing either the aka
or because riichi pinfu with 2 doras is sufficient especially with the kan ura dora. Therefore, by going the fastest approach, which is , is enough. The faster approach have more tiles to utilise the dora. They are
(not to mention also ). so realistically speaking, I'm definitely fine with the following hand. The above hand is probably the most realistic one. the
can be replaced by and discard . the can be replaced by . Really easy to secure pinfu riichi dora 3 as compared to trying to secure a 123ssk whereby you need to form a pair else where (ending up in dora tanki is worst) and trying to get and The 567ssk is not a focus but just a big bonus. Therefore, your approach is a slightly higher chance of ssk but slower riichi pinfu dora dora tenpai. My approach is very low chance of ssk but with a lot faster (more than 2 times faster) riichi pinfu dora 3 tenpai.