WWYD 2014-12-01

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saitym
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WWYD 2014-12-01

Post by saitym » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:02 am

2014120208gm-0029-0000-f775eb3b&tw=3&ts=1.jpg
2014120208gm-0029-0000-f775eb3b&tw=3&ts=1.jpg (43.79 KiB) Viewed 9193 times
Came across this hand today and thought it would be fun to post it here to get other people's opinions because I genuinely can't figure out which discard is best. Just in case it's not clear It's hanchan-sen, east 2, dora is 1-crak and 6-bam

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or2az
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Re: WWYD 2014-12-01

Post by or2az » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:39 am

It's early in the match, scores are close, and without analyzing this for an hour, here's where I would like this hand to end up.
1-crak 2-crak 3-crak 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 1-bam 2-bam 3-bam 5-crak 5-crak (or 6-bam 6-bam )
That means one of those dora (red 5 or the 6) has got to go. But when?
If I intend to make a set with the 6-bam , I need two discards ready to go, like the 2-bam and the 6-dot .
If I draw the 4-crak or some good dots early, or a connector to that 6-bam , maybe san shoku is not going to happen, but there would be lots of chows, and pinfu.
Getting the 4-dot early would allow me to ditch the 1-dot, and add tanyao to the mix, but as for right now,
I don't want a pung of them, so my discard right now would be one of the 2-bam.
I suspect my next good tile will determine which way I will go, or make my next choice for a discard a bit more complicated.

cliff168
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Re: WWYD 2014-12-01

Post by cliff168 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:12 am

I think cutting the red 5-crak is best here. Your main goal here should be to get another another ryanmen wait. The 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot shape is the most valuable towards this end and cannot be discarded. Comparing the doras 5-crak and 6-bam , 6-bam is more valuable since 5-crak has overlapping effective tiles with the 2-crak 3-crak wait. Comparing 5-crak and 3-bam, 3-bam has 2 more tiles for good shape and drawing 1-bam is not bad and gives a chance at sanshoku (and option to call for tenpai).
Also, drawing the 6-crak gives you worse 1 shanten shape because of overlapping effective tiles.

Discarding 2-bam to fixate on sanshoku is a mistake since it will worsen your 2 shanten shape a lot.

There is no need to sacrifice tile efficiency for value here, since your hand already has a lot of value, probably riichi pinfu dora 1 is the minimum, and there is also kan dora in play.

Edit: looking at this more closely, drawing 4-crak gives you insane good shape 1 shanten, so I change my answer to I don't know :) 5-crak 3-bam 6-bam all look pretty even to me now.

Looking this over for a long time, I think I would discard 3-bam , my thinking is drawing 1-bam after tossing 5-crak or 6-bam is not that great anyway, while drawing 2-bam or 4-bam after discarding 3-bam are not complete backfires (but still pretty bad). The backfires for 5-crak and 6-bam would be more painful I think, keeping in mind they're both dora also. In addition, if I discard 5-crak or 6-bam and draw 1-crak , most likely 3-bam would be the next to go anyway. This is a difficult WWYD, and I don't think there is a clear cut best discard.

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Re: WWYD 2014-12-01

Post by mrfeng » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:51 pm

I voted 3-bam since you are not expecting any formation of pairs from 2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 6-bam

Red 5-crak shouldn't be discarded. Tile efficiency of 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot and 2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 6-crak is the same and you kill sanshoku though its not the main point to be considered.
Manzu are likely to be easily to be drawn as per what I can see. This is because the player on your left has very few manzu. By pure chances, its most possible that he is on souzu honitsu since you hold very few of them.

After the discard of 3-bam , if you form a mentsu from 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot , do prioritise discarding 6-bam (if early) if you are to choose between red 5-crak vs 6-bam (if my guess is right that he is on souzu honitsu) Don't worry if he pon the 6-bam. You have a monster hand to fight with him. Plus, it is not easy to complete a honitsu hand with a ponned of such a middle tile. When both of you guys are in tenpai, you are definitely in advantage since the players will definitely defend against the honitsu player.

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or2az
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Re: WWYD 2014-12-01

Post by or2az » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:50 pm

Just a few questions; I'm trying to understand this better.
since you are not expecting any formation of pairs from 2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 6-bam
Why can't you expect to get a pair from the 5-crak 6-bam ? There are 6 of them out there with lots of tiles remaining.
Also;
Red 5-crak shouldn't be discarded. Tile efficiency of 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot and 2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 6-crak is the same and you kill sanshoku
How does tossing the red 5 kill sanshoku?......and......Where did that 6 crack come from?

mrfeng
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Re: WWYD 2014-12-01

Post by mrfeng » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:52 pm

or2az wrote:Just a few questions; I'm trying to understand this better.
since you are not expecting any formation of pairs from 2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 6-bam
Why can't you expect to get a pair from the 5-crak 6-bam ? There are 6 of them out there with lots of tiles remaining.

By I don't expect it means I wouldn't consider leaving space for it at the expense of speed. It doesn't make you any happier when your hand value is high enough.

Also;
Red 5-crak shouldn't be discarded. Tile efficiency of 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot and 2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 6-crak is the same and you kill sanshoku
How does tossing the red 5 kill sanshoku?......and......Where did that 6 crack come from?

The sanshoku here is 567, which you would need a five. 6-crak appeared by..instinct after reading cliff's post which he mentioned about getting a worse 1shanten shape after drawing 6-crak . Apologies for the confusion. I know you were considering about 123 sanshoku but my mind had only 567 since i aim to form a set around the dora which is the two red fives and 6 bamboo. Naturally, I didn't bother about 123 sanshoku since I have set my pairs on 2-bam

Please see the above underlined to your questions.

Also, I went to confirm whether 3-bam was the fastest.

http://tenhou.net/2/?q=235m1235667p2236s

Indeed, it was.

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or2az
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Re: WWYD 2014-12-01

Post by or2az » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:25 pm

Okay, one last comment before I put this one to rest.
You would need 4 tiles just to complete a 567 sanshoku. I can get to a 123 sanshoku (and a nice win with 3 dora) with just 3 tiles, and I don't even have to keep the hand closed. Riichi or tsumo would add even more, haneman, I think. This still bothers me. Why isn't it worth going for?
Maybe if I saw what the final shape of the hand you are going for would look like, it might be clearer.
The problem that persists is that I did not want to use the 2-bam as my pair, and I would like to understand why I should have?
Thanks for your patience.

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Re: WWYD 2014-12-01

Post by mrfeng » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:35 pm

hahaha No problem. I'm quite patience in explaining. Or rather, I'm quite happy when any player continues to ask and explore.

The problem with 123ssk is that, it is not confirmed and it bet on getting a pair of 6-bam dora or aka 5-crak pair which is not so easy. Also the value of your hand can become riichi pinfu dora 1/2

I look at 567 ssk (whether is it ssk or not i don't really care) is because I focus on forming a set with the dora. Your focus is getting a pair of the dora, while mine is a chow set.

The progress of the hand, at best case scenario can be this if 3-bam is discarded.

2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam 5-bam 6-bam

3-crak 5-crak 6-crak 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam 5-bam 6-bam

5-crak 6-crak 7-crak 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam 5-bam 6-bam

It is indeed that 567 ssk is further than 123 but ssk is not the focus in the first place. I don't really need it.

The focus is utilizing either the aka 5-crak or 6-bam because riichi pinfu with 2 doras is sufficient especially with the kan ura dora. Therefore, by going the fastest approach, which is 3-bam, is enough.

The faster approach have more tiles to utilise the dora. They are 1-crak 4-crak 6-crak 5-bam 7-bam (not to mention also 5-crak 6-bam ). so realistically speaking, I'm definitely fine with the following hand.

3-crak 4-crak 5-crak 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam 5-bam 6-bam

The above hand is probably the most realistic one. the 4-crak can be replaced by 1-crak and discard 5-crak . the 5-bam can be replaced by 7-bam. Really easy to secure pinfu riichi dora 3 as compared to trying to secure a 123ssk whereby you need to form a pair else where (ending up in dora tanki is worst) and trying to get 1-bam and 1-crak

The 567ssk is not a focus but just a big bonus. Therefore, your approach is a slightly higher chance of ssk but slower riichi pinfu dora dora tenpai. My approach is very low chance of ssk but with a lot faster (more than 2 times faster) riichi pinfu dora 3 tenpai.

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