Query re rules

[Uthred]

I was just looking over the official EMA rules and I noticed the following

\"3.4 End of a hand

A hand can end in three ways: by exhaustive draw (no-one declares a win after the discard after the last tile), by abortive draw or by one or more players declaring a win.\"

How does more than one player win? Also I noticed the rules dont address (or at least I cant see where they address) order of preference for calling on a discard when more than one player can ron.

[Monadology]

In some rules, if more than one player declares a win the player who discards the winning tile pays both of them.

In other rules, they only pay the player who would come next in the play order.

I believe in all rule sets, three declared wins on a single tile actually ties the hand.

In any case, a player can declare a win without actually winning (you might declare a win but end up fouling when it turns out it didn\'t complete your hand, or you were furiten). So regardless of ruleset, it\'s pretty simple to explain how multiple players can declare a win.

More than one player declares it on the same discard by exclaiming \'Ron\'.

[Barticle]

Remember the proverb: \"two rons don´t make a right\"! :laugh:

(link for non-English readers)

[Uthred]

Thanks for the explanation. I was also wondering what happens if one runs out of points? Does the game simply end?

[TobiasOlsen]

In the EMA rules, 3 rons does not cause the hand to get replayed. The player who discarded the tile simply pays the other 3 players (he should probably have known better than to discard that tile).

In european tournaments, you start at 0 points, so there is no \"running out of points\". We simply keep track of the number of points you have at any given time, which can be negative (and will be for at least one player unless everyone are tied)

[Uthred]

In european tournaments, you start at 0 points, so there is no "running out of points". We simply keep track of the number of points you have at any given time, which can be negative (and will be for at least one player unless everyone are tied)

How do points work in casual play though? Ive seen it suggested that in a casual game each player starts with 25,000 or 30,000 points.

[TobiasOlsen]

Usually, when we play, we also start at 0 points, simply because we don\'t feel like the game ending before time because someone loses too many points.

[Poochy]

For games that do have a starting point amount, some play with the \"buttobi\" rule, where the game immediately ends if anybody\'s score goes into the negative. Some play so that the buttobi rule takes effect when someone has exactly 0 points at the end of a hand, too. (In the latter variation, someone with exactly 1,000 points may declare Reach, but if his/her score is still 0 at the end of the hand, buttobi takes effect.)

Common starting point values are 20K, 25K, 27K, and 30K. 20K is usually only used in East only games, and 27K tends to be used only in games with a +9K/-3K/-3K/-3K uma because it makes the post-uma scores easier to calculate.

[Barticle]

For games that do have a starting point amount, some play with the "buttobi" rule, where the game immediately ends if anybody\'s score goes into the negative.

I´ve seen the same rule called Dobon. When Dobon is Ari a negative score ends the game early.

Common starting point values are 20K, 25K, 27K, and 30K. 20K is usually only used in East only games, and 27K tends to be used only in games with a +9K/-3K/-3K/-3K uma because it makes the post-uma scores easier to calculate.

In some situations or places the players buy into a game with 30k points but then start the game with 25k or 27k. In this case the excess 20k or 12k becomes the Oka bonus which is paid to the winner at the end.

Obviously there´s not so much point doing that in a one-off or casual game - the winner is the winner - but playing in a league/tournament or gambling it makes a big difference.

[Shirluban]

I was also wondering what happens if one runs out of points? Does the game simply end?

This is a "problem" only if you use scoring sticks.
If you just write the score on a paper, it\'s ok to have a negative score.

For gambling, ending the game when one goes out of points prevents gamblers to loose more than they have bet.

"If you don\'t gamble, you don\'t worry." (quoted from myself, now)

How do points work in casual play though? Ive seen it suggested that in a casual game each player starts with 25,000 or 30,000 points.

There is 30 000 points per player (i.e. 120 000 points on the table). Players can start with less points (like 25 000 each) and the remaining points go to the winner as a "final winner bonus".

[or2az]

phpeajfjWPM.jpg (21.12 KiB) Viewed 18723 times

Is this correct?
I was under the impression that one MUST have 1000 points available to call riichi.

[Senechal]

Ink on paper.

While it's not impossible that some people could invent a rule, it's nowhere near a sizable amount to give it any credence.

Three modes exist to cover 99.999995% of all riichi mahjong:
* Physical points with a physical limit (0 being the lowest legal score to continue the game): you can only riichi with what you have.
* Virtual points with no limit (scoring on paper)
* Physical points with no limit but a mechanism for accounting for negative points (loans or backup sticks).

AFAIK, it's impossible to call riichi, place a deposit of 600 points and say "we'll let the game end if I fail". Whatever logical social contract players have had would inevitably be broken.

[Shirluban]

Some rules specify if you can declare riichi with less than 1000 points... just to say you can't.
Of course, this is only when bankruptcy is applied, since the question doesn't make sense when negative score is allowed.

Bankruptcy = you can't pay points you don't have.
Declaring <1000pts riichi = betting points you don't have.
While this combination must exist somewhere, it doesn't add up.