14 Tile Dead Wall? ---- Rule Clarification Please

[iandstanley]

I would like a professional clarification please.

iandstanley, you are wrong (not about 4 kans, but the dead wall). Dead wall in riichi always have 14 tiles. So when you are doing Kan dead wall is replenished, but tile is added to the other end

So what Chalwa is saying is, when a Kan is made:

KEY: # is the dora tile pair, o is a single tile in the wall and 8 is a two tile pair in the wall.

So we go from 88#8888 888.... to o8#8888o <-- o88..... (ie move the bottom of the sea tile to the dead wall?(

Question is which ruleset are you using?

FIXED WALL (AGAINST REPLENISHMENT)

• Futami Kogeisha Rules Translation (from the \'60s/\'70s) doesn\'t
• Tenhou DOES NOT reduce the live wall.

REPLENISHING WALL

• Toudai Shiki DOES according to the DELFOSSE translation page at http://www.delfosse.com/mahjong.html (I am assuming this is a accurate translation)
• The EMA translation play that way
• I suppose that technically MCR reduces the live tiles as it does not have a dead wall

Tom mentions Classical Chinese and HKOS take this approach (http://www.sloperama.com/mahjongg/column299c.html)but does not mention Riichi (???)

This confusion is obviously down to a mis-translation (on one or other side of the translation) of the setting up of the wall. Some people taking that the wall should always be 14 tiles and others that it is initially setup as 14 tiles. English translations seem to take either approach which would suggest that it may not be clear in the original language.

:unsure:Is there any reference in any of the major official rules (not the English translations) explicitly stating (or clearly implying) a move of a tile from the bottom of the sea position (last tile on the wall).

[deJENNerate]

I will double-check on Tenhou, but as far as I know, in Japan ALL games leave 14 tiles at the end of the game no matter how many quads were declared.

This does not mean the live wall is reduced, because once the supplementary tiles are drawn from the wall for Quads/kan, those tiles are considered live, so the number of draws remain the same, they are just being taken from the opposite direction.

The point is that there will always be enough left in the wall for a full hand when the game ends. All pro leagues in Japan and every parlor I have ever played in leaves 14 tiles in the dead wall, replenishing it with the live wall if tiles are drawn for quad/kan.

Also written here that the game will end when 14 tiles remain.

***Just checked on Tenhou. They leave 14 tiles, even after a Kan/Quad is declared, so the dead wall is replenished on Tenhou as well.

[gemma]

Yeah on Tenhou they just leave the wall split where it is graphically but the hand stops once there are 14 tiles left.

[iandstanley]

Yeah on Tenhou they just leave the wall split where it is graphically but the hand stops once there are 14 tiles left.

Somewhat misleading I agree.



I wonder when I forgot about the rule. I learnt from the EMA rules which clearly state maintain 14 tiles ... but I play mainly on Tenhou.