Discussion Rule Variants

[Poochy]

* Senrigan (Clairvoyance): Each player can see the tile that he/she will draw on his/her next turn if nobody calls a pon/chi/kan.

So if somebody does call, does it mean it is sometimes possible for one player to know some of the tiles in another player\'s hand?

I believe so; if you count out the turns, you can figure out who drew the tile that you had previously seen. The display changes whenever someone calls a tile.

Example: You just discarded a tile, and the next tiles in the wall are: red-crak

Your display shows a . Your turn comes and you draw the , and at the same time, the display immediately changes to a . You discard the . Then the player opposite you calls pon on it. The display immediately changes to a . Your turn comes again and you draw the . You can now figure out that the player across from you will draw the on his next turn, while he was looking at the before he called pon, and can now figure out that you\'ll draw it on your next turn (assuming nobody calls a tile in the meantime).

From the perspective of the player opposite you: He sees the red-crak first, and draws it, causing the display to switch to a . When he calls your , his display immediately switches the to a .

Edit: Found a video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3e4JWz3xYE

[zzo38]

Here is more ideas:

• When making a closed kan, you put 3 face-up tiles and 1 face-down tile. The face-down tile is not shown to anyone yet. (It is shown if you win the hand, or in a abortive or exhaustive draw.) Later, any player can call it wrong kan on their turn, and then you reveal it. If it is in fact wrong, you have to pay the player who called it wrong. If it is the correct kan, then the player who said it was wrong has to pay you. If you have wrong kan then your hand is dead and you cannot win. In a draw, if you have wrong kan then you have to pay each other player for each wrong kan you have. (This rule should not be used when a dead wall is used or if you do 4 kan abortive draw)
• Up to one tile you discard is allowed to be marked in some way (such as placing a ring on top). Once any player wins: If any possible tile they are waiting on (like furiten) is the same as the marked tile or the tile which is indicated by the marked tile (like dora), then the winner pays the discarder (themself if tsumo win) and the player who marked the tile, each a certain number of points. If the tile is marked and this condition is wrong, then the player who marked has to pay the winner and discarder each that amount, instead.
• Make riichi cost double for east player (2000 points instead of 1000 points). Or, you can make it cost only one and a half times what it costs for non-east (so, 1500 points instead of 1000 points)
• When using ura-dora half han, make it round up instead of down.
• When playing 27-red, the red tiles become visible to all players whenever they are in someone\'s hand.

[sevenup]

No chii is allowed to win Ryanpaikou, so it is different from Honitsu or Junchan, both are the other 3fan hands.

Also, to make your hand for Ryanpeikou, the process is not easy you know? It is so easy to decide to go for Honitsu for exmaple. Junchan is also relatively easy in terms of the decision to go for it.

But when you do Ryanpeikou, you always think of the possibility of Chiitoitsu, and that part is rather difficult. Unlike Honitsu and Junchan, you can not meld to win either. Lots of effort is required.

I believe lots of people would think Ranpeikou is much harder compared to those two other 3-fan hands. Then, the rule or score should be changed, I think.

As for Iipeikou, this is not combined with Chiitoitsu, but no one knows why? The rule here also doesn\'t make sense.

[Mcgreag]

As for Iipeikou, this is not combined with Chiitoitsu, but no one knows why? The rule here also doesn\'t make sense.

What do you means none knows? Most people know, it\'s because if a tile can be used in more than one way in a finished hand you have to decide which way you want to use it, it can not be used in two different ways (pairs and chi) at the same time. That is what the rulebook says.

[sevenup]

I guess I should have said there was no good reason why someone came up with the rule.

223344 are not seen as toitsu (pairs), but shuntsu (sequence), and based on that they decided that chiitoitsu can not have iipeikou.

But it can also look like there are four pairs as well by the look. Then why not adding to Chiitoitsu and make an exception? In reality, you can have Iipeikou in Chiitoitsu quite often. It\'s a shame that you can not have an additional fan for the combination!

[Tom Sloper]

Then why not adding to Chiitoitsu and make an exception? In reality, you can have Iipeikou in Chiitoitsu quite often. It\'s a shame that you can not have an additional fan for the combination!

But you do.
Ryanpeikou is 3 fan.
Chiitoitsu is 2 fan.
So, in effect, Ryanpeikou is chiitoitsu plus 1 fan for the sequential aspect.
If you look at it this way, chiitoitsu is "implied" by the higher score for ryanpeikou.

[Senechal]

I guess I should have said there was =1=no good reason why someone came up with the rule.

But it can also =2=look like there are four pairs as well by the look. Then why not adding to Chiitoitsu and make an exception? In reality, you can have =3=Iipeikou in Chiitoitsu quite often. It\'s a shame that you can not have an additional fan for the combination!

=1=If you can\'t discern the reason, I won\'t name the fallacy out of half-hearted respect, but you can\'t deny existence of one.

=2=Looks can be deceiving. See point 3 for the closer.

=3=They aren\'t commutative concepts. You can have 4 melds and a pair, of which two are identical straights with the whole hand concealed, or you can have seven pairs which may or may not have the appearance of having bricked straights. The intermediate concept to these two hands is a hand structure with two straights and 4 pairs, which doesn\'t exist. :ohmy: :ohmy: :ohmy:

Next, we\'ll be claiming 2 han for honroutou on kokushi.

[Mcgreag]

I guess I should have said there was no good reason why someone came up with the rule.

It\'s one of the basic scoring rules that is part of most major mahjong variation.

Compared to for example MCR riichi has a very short list of scoring patterns which means a smaller number of situations where it applies but even in riichi chitoitsu/iipeikpu are not the only one.

Another example 11122233 789 concealed you would have to choose if it\'s either iipeikou + possibly chanta/junchan (depending on the pair) + possibly pinfu (depending on pair and wait) or only san ankou, you can\'t get both. And there are more.

[sevenup]

In that example, either Junchan/Pinfu or Sanankou would be determined by the tile you wait for to win the hand.

So, it is different from what I have been saying in the case of Iipei and chiitoitsu. In this case, it is always the last tile to make the last pair. There is no option.

Changing the rule (scoring), or any rule, is revolution really. I am sure there are lots of people who would go against it, but you know, so-called official rule is not really that respected by many Mahjong players in Japan. That is why we have local rules.

And those players actually introduced new ideas in the current rule. Like, for example, Sanshoku being 2 fan or 1 fan if melded. This was not common back in old days. Interesting huh?

Well, so my suggestion is just my opinion.

[Shirluban]

In that example, either Junchan/Pinfu or Sanankou would be determined by the tile you wait for to win the hand.

So, it is different from what I have been saying in the case of Iipei and chiitoitsu. In this case, it is always the last tile to make the last pair. There is no option.

I don\'t understand your argument.
Whatever your winning tile is, you are free to arrange your concealed tiles in any sets and pair(s) you want, and to say which set/pair it ends.

Your winning tile matters only for counting pinfuu.
If I have 111222333 789 99 concealed, you can score junchan OR sanankou as you please, the tile you waited for is irrelevant.

[sevenup]

You are right about Pinfu. Which has to have the pair and you have to have Ryanmen-machi, concealed. So you have to be specific in what tiles you have to wait for the win. I did not have to include both Junchan and Pinfu for all occasions.

But in 111222333 789 99 (concealed), you will always get Junchan. There is no choice of Sanankou because Iipeikou is combained with Junchan.

I actually need to research on those. I happened to find a list of all possible combination of all Yaku\'s, but the source does not say what it\'s based on. I will ask around about this.

But the basic and common argument is that you can only look at 1 set as either sequential or triplet. So based on this general rule, there is no way to combine Junchan and Sanankou. However, on the list I found it says it is possible to combine. So again, the rule is blur here as well.

[Mcgreag]

You can combine junchan and sanankou. No pinfu here of course and no alternative in how to arrange the tiles.

[sevenup]

That is the only pattern then. One sequential set with 3 ankous. Thanks for the feedback!

[Shirluban]

But in 111222333 789 99 (concealed), you will always get Junchan.

Why?
If I sort this hand as 111, 222, 333, 789, 99 (3 koutsu, 1 shuntsu and 1 atama ) I certainly not have junchan.

But the basic and common argument is that you can only look at 1 set as either sequential or triplet. So based on this general rule, there is no way to combine Junchan and Sanankou.

Of course a set is either a sequence or a triplet! Who will dare to say otherwise?
In the example I have given, of course you can NOT count junchan AND sanankou.
Please note I never said any thing in this way.
My exact words are "you can score junchan OR sanankou".

[sevenup]

I think if its concealed, you count Iipeikou and Junchan. So you can have more fans.