History of Mahjong: Cheating

Japanese Reach Mahjong Rules. Strategy, news, sets - anything!

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WorTeX
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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by WorTeX » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:00 pm

I am sorry about my \"attitude\", but the thing to remove it would be just ridiculous...

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by HotelFSR » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:53 pm

Pretty harsh.

I think that\'s a bit of a knee jerk reaction, given the logical train of thought that has been clearly laid out for discussion.


You may not agree with it, or like it, but the reasoning laid out here does make sense. Even at worst it\'s not quite \'ridiculous\'.

Also, I feel like I shouldn\'t be moderating a moderator...

Isn\'t it best to be at least slightly impartial to both sides when you are hosting a site?

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by WorTeX » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:15 pm

Ok, from now on i shall not criticize anything, but you also have to admit that adding the dance-around-table-every-claim is best for the game.

probably the best argument was from benjamin, like the hand where you have 3dora, no yaku, ready hand on a closed wait.

In mahjong, statistics are hard for me, and don\'t regard them much, because there are so many factors before getting to the finished hand.

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by sir_seagill » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:13 am

WorTeX wrote:but the thing to remove it would be just ridiculous...
agreed.

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by Benjamin » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:02 am

* Menzen Tsumo is generally worth more than 1.5x because it is a yaku.

Please stop repeating this, it is incorrect. Menzen tsumo, like pinfu, at most increases a hand\'s score by 1.5x. Look at the scoring tables again and add up the tsumo scores. Dont forget that menzen ron starts at 30 fu and menzen tsumo is 20.

[The only time it can double a hand is if the 2 fu from tsumo (or hidden pon) are enough to push the fu level over one step.]

* I completely accept that you have spent a lot of time in the Mahjong world and that nobody has brought this up with you.

--Look, like I said this isnt whats important. But considering that there are hundreds of books on Mahjong in this country and hundreds of pros. No one complains about this. Id love to see what Jenn/Garthe think, but theyre too smart to get into this sort of conversation :P


I know I am not the only one with this stance. Alan Kwan, the inventor of WSoM Rules (based on computational analysis) has gone on record many times stating he agrees with this.

I disagree with a lot of what Alan says about riichi and about other rules too. His rules are pretty interesting, but he had to make major revisions after the first WSOM because people wouldnt play according to his \"statistically correct\" rules.

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by pringle » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:21 am

HotelFSR wrote:

5) What is average yaku winning by Menzen and non Menzen (only yaku not han)?

Both the same, except Menzen +1 yaku on average (over non Menzen average). Logical. It makes no other difference.
They are not the same to me. Not sure if I use \'han\' as a coreect term, but basicly I want to know how many yaku they get without dora or red five.


-------------------------------------------------------------

I heard that in professional rule, they try to get rid of luck factors because in some country luck is used to determine if it a gambling or a sport.

Actually, I feel pity to that. If we want to compete in mahjong without luck involve we better make it as a quiz instead of relying on random tiles we get.

And if 66% going for a closed hand and less than 50% of that can get a Menzen, isn\'t 1.5x-2x is a proper reward?

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by HotelFSR » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:40 am

Please stop repeating this, it is incorrect. Menzen tsumo, like pinfu, at most increases a hand\'s score by 1.5x. Look at the scoring tables again and add up the tsumo scores. Dont forget that menzen ron starts at 30 fu and menzen tsumo is 20.


It does double. It doubles what you would otherwise get winning on Tsumo, as opposed to Ron. I understand than Ron is worth more in terms of base points, but that is not what we are comparing here. We are comparing a Tsumo with a lower yaku Tsumo, not what you would get for the same hand on Ron.

E.G. going up the appropriate column on the scoring chart you would land in for your Tsumo, the scores double. The fact that you get more Fu for Ron is a side issue and not what is being compared here.



--Look, like I said this isnt whats important. But considering that there are hundreds of books on Mahjong in this country and hundreds of pros. No one complains about this. Id love to see what Jenn/Garthe think, but theyre too smart to get into this sort of conversation

Like I said, I accept that the bulk of this conversation has gone far enough for the time being. Nevertheless, I suspect that these legions of pros and books don\'t really complain about anything at all (as is to be expected) and that this in itself- as you point out- doesn\'t mean much. Not many people take interest in the evolution of games and sports- better just to ignore that and play- unless they are involved in the official implementation of rules and statistics.


I disagree with a lot of what Alan says about riichi and about other rules too. His rules are pretty interesting, but he had to make major revisions after the first WSOM because people wouldnt play according to his \"statistically correct\" rules.

I also have some issues with his stance and have spoken extensively with him about it. It\'s natural, though, that people resist change. It\'s more about culture and what players are used to than any intrinsic merits of the game in one version or another. Occasionally, however, these attitudes do change over time, and what was once controversial becomes accepted. This often takes a while.

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by Shirluban » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:44 pm

HotelFSR wrote:You can choose how to play the tiles you are dealt, but Menzen Tsumo is completely random, unlike patterns you can aim for and choices you make based on the actions of other players.

Reach is also a gameplay decision that you make which has its own effects.

That\'s the difference.
Menzen tsumo is NOT totaly random, since the hand need to be concealed.
It\'s a gameplay decision to keep you hand concealed or not, and it rewards players who understant the benefits of a concealed hand.


HotelFSR wrote:You are absolutely right that the Menzen issue affects everyone randomly and equally. That is precisely the problem. It adds variance, which means that it adds to the possibility that the more skilled player can lose out in a tournament.

Over many hands this is ironed out and becomes less of an issue, but in tournaments you don\'t play all that many hands. Hence it is a problem in competition.
I don\'t understand in what a (said) random impartial effect would benefits more to low skill players.
It helps every one again every other ones, whatever their skill level.

Maybe comptetition should not based on real games but on theorics questions? It would remove all randomness.


HotelFSR wrote:* There are already very many rewards for a closed hand. They are also all not so random- besides Menzen, which also favoritizes hands like Pinfu at the expense of rarer hands.
Again, this totaly random effect (as you said) affects more some unrelated hands than other unrelated hand.
I sould check my definition of "random".

HotelFSR wrote:* Having a good wait and winning by Tsumo is simply a reward itself, so why should it have a bonus?
Having a good wait and winning by Tsumo should not have a bonus, it should have a way to win.
If you remove the menzen tsumo yaku, a "good wait winning by tsumo" is not a reward, it\'s a chonbo.
... unless you said "riichi" in almost every hand, whatever it is.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by pringle » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:21 pm

HotelFSR wrote:
Like I said, I accept that the bulk of this conversation has gone far enough for the time being. Nevertheless, I suspect that these legions of pros and books don\'t really complain about anything at all (as is to be expected) and that this in itself- as you point out- doesn\'t mean much. Not many people take interest in the evolution of games and sports- better just to ignore that and play- unless they are involved in the official implementation of rules and statistics.
Nah, I think you just looking the game in different direction.

As I understand, I think you feeling that

Winning from Ron mean other players have lower skill and throwing into your hand and there nothing about luck.

Winning from Menzen-tsumo, no other involve you on your own with your luck in drawing.

However, you seem to forget that to be able to pong/chow and still win a hand we need a good hand to start with, thus that also luck. And your life even easier.

On the other hand, to get a complete concealed hand eventhough it require luck in drawing it also require players ability to read the game to manage their wait, thus also skill. Not to mention that they usually forced to do it because they start with a bad luck that not allow them to pong/chow.

A rare hand usually associate with luck. A cheap hand require less luck and can be easily alter with skill.

I don\'t think someone who just rely on luck alone will get Menzen-tsumo easily.

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by HotelFSR » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:47 pm

The last two posters are correct.



My issue is simply that it adds much more in variance than it does in skill. Closed hand is not random, but Menzen is.

>>I don\'t understand in what a random impartial effect would benefits more to low skill players.

This simply means bigger swings, which means that it takes more games to accurately determine the better player.

That\'s a problem in tournament situations, and is not as fair as it could be.


Yes, there is a huge amount of variance in the game already with starting tiles and everything else. The whole Menzen debate is how this one rule adds a whole bunch of extra variance.



And yes, a hand with several doras but no yaku would be unwinnable- but I see no problem with doras having this downside.

It\'s always about what you\'re used to- I\'m sure MCR players find it weird and annyong that you don\'t get a self draw bonus for an open hand. Reach players take it for granted, just as you would expect.

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by pringle » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:21 am

Ok, I think you trying to compare between Menzen and Concealed hand + Ron.

Between the two, I do agree that which one to get is seem to be about luck. And actually, Ron maybe even harder to get if we play with skill players, thus forced to go for tsumo.

However, I do not agree with remove Menzen reward but rather giving similar reward to Concealed+Ron.

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by Arcade » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:41 am

Some data I found at tenhou. I couldn\'t find data for pure menzen tsumo%, but I guess this would suffice.

Correlation coefficient of tsumo% to a player\'s rating: -0.2815
Correlation coefficient is a value indicating the strength of relationships between two variables, the maximum being 1.

If menzen tsumo was such a balance breaking yaku, skilled mahjong players would obviously use them efficiently and try to attain a high tsumo%, which should result in a high positive correlation coefficient value. But what our data proves is exactly the opposite. The value being so low it means that tsumo% is hardly relavent to a players skill, and it being negative it suggests that having LESS tsumo% would result in a higher rating.:side:

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by deJENNerate » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:23 am

The rules depend on the league.

It is true that in JPML the A-Rules (used for Pro League, Women\'s League, OUI Tournament, 10-Tier Tournament and Champion\'s League) do not allow Ura-dora, Kan-dora or Ippatsu. They also DO allow kuitan.

However, in SNPM and NPM tournaments and JPML B-Rules they do use ippatsu, ura and kan-dora.

The hidden dora/lucky tiles are there for an added gambling aspect and like some people have mentioned in this thread, to give an incentive for Reach.

The concealed self-draw/menzen-tsumo is still in use to reward concealed hands. It is much easier to make a hand with an open hand then it is to make hands that use other players\' discards. Most other rules (Taiwanese, for one) also give bonuses for self-drawn wins. Some concealed, some not.

One very important thing about these rules, which poker players will appreciate, is that they give the underdog a fighting chance. This is what seperates them from chess and gives newcomers an in and lets them stay in the game against experts. I would much rather play agains A-Leaguers like Setokuma with B-Rules (ippatsu and ura) than with A-Rules. His edge above me is way too high in A-rules.

Although it may be true that some rules were made by cheaters, they\'re not there to benefit cheaters now. The real hustlers are able to cheat no matter which rules are in place. Some of the videos that Takeo Kojima made showed how he could win on any discard of a player. Is that in media yet? Maybe I can get it up today.

I like the menzen-tsumo rule because it feels that much better when you win the hand on a Reach. And I love the ura-dora rules because they make Reach so much more exiting (^.^)v

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by HotelFSR » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:28 am

Arcade:

My issue was not that it is abusable by skilled players, or that it directly favoritizes less skilled players- just that it adds excess variance, which is a problem in competition where you don\'t play a huge number of hands.

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Re:History of Mahjong: Cheating

Post by Arcade » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:49 am

Mahjong competitions aren\'t really competitions as they\'re called; players must play an excess of 1000 games to determine their skill, and most competitions play nowhere close to as many games. Mahjong is made more of simple luck rather than skill or technique when it comes to short term tournaments. With or without menzen.

If we\'re gonna discuss about excess variance, isn\'t the dora a much more bigger problem? Especially in A rules (I personally don\'t belive A-rules to be reduced of gambling factors contrary to common belief, but thats another story).

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