Double Runs

Japanese Reach Mahjong Rules. Strategy, news, sets - anything!

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Tom Sloper
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Re:Double Runs

Post by Tom Sloper » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:50 pm

HotelFSR wrote:That site has illustrations for most of the hands.
"That site"? Oh, you mean http://www.ix3.jp/hiii/02mahken/1-10local.htm - I came into the thread late. I just went to that website, found a link to ウィンドウズ95. Tried searching the page for "95" and "九五" but no luck. Oh wait, while typing this I realized that "95" when written using MIME is different than "95" when typed normally using an American keyboard. Found them! Thanks.
I wrote:Oh wait, while typing this I realized that "95" when written using MIME is different than "95" when typed normally using an American keyboard.
Darn, I can\'t paste Japanese characters in and have them show up properly.
4649おねがいします。

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Re:Double Runs

Post by KawamuraReo » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:45 am

Gaaah learn to comprehension!

tl;dr of my previous post: Low probability doesn\'t justify the need to increase the yaku of hand value when you can stack them with other yaku to make them very high!! Increasing it makes it much easier to get higher, more powerful hands and makes it far more luck based than it already is, and doesn\'t reward the player as much for skill and strategic cutting >_>

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Re:Double Runs

Post by HotelFSR » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:10 am

Doesn\'t seem that I have any problems \"to comprehension\"...


Some hands are far more stackable than others, and that doesn\'t change the fact that a rare hand is still rare. A game breaker is something that is common and unduly rewarded.

Players get Junchan less than 1% of the time, and it is impossible to stack with Tanyao, difficult to stack with pretty much anything else. The probablity of a stacked Junchan is tiny, something like 0.1%. You\'re telling me that giving that one extra yaku would break the game?

No way. It happens something like once in a hundred hanchan. If you think that\'s a game breaker, you should be complaining about yakuman hands.

I\'m saying increase the yaku of the extremely rare hands only, not the common ones.

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Re:Double Runs

Post by KawamuraReo » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:54 am

HotelFSR wrote:Some hands are far more stackable than others, and that doesn\'t change the fact that a rare hand is still rare. A game breaker is something that is common and unduly rewarded.

Players get Junchan less than 1% of the time, and it is impossible to stack with Tanyao, difficult to stack with pretty much anything else. The probablity of a stacked Junchan is tiny, something like 0.1%. You\'re telling me that giving that one extra yaku would break the game?

No way. It happens something like once in a hundred hanchan. If you think that\'s a game breaker, you should be complaining about yakuman hands.

I\'m saying increase the yaku of the extremely rare hands only, not the common ones.
I see something quite wrong with your definition of "game breaker," I will concede the fact that it is something unduly rewarded, but it is not always something that is common. There are a few games where there are hard-to-find exploits that, when they are found, become "game breakers." Mahjong is no exception, when you decide to do something like this. One yaku can be the difference between limit hands, and all of a sudden hands that people machinate become bigger, it becomes more abusable, and this is also making Mahjong even more luck-based than it already is. You are still dwelling on probability and not really seeing it from a holistic point of view. Extremely rare hands CAN be machinated and that is how it should be, there should absolutely be no reason to increase yaku of such hands when this just makes people believe in luck even more.

Junchan is already 3 yaku when close, making it 4 is stretching it a little... Especially when, you increase other rare yaku like Ryanpei, it IS possible to stack Junchan with Ryanpei, if we go by your logic, you could easily make such a rare hand a baiman or even more, and this kind of defeats the point of yakuman which, as you mentioned yourself, are just as rare!

I honestly don\'t see what you\'re getting at here, but maybe I\'m too much of a kid to understand

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Re:Double Runs

Post by HotelFSR » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:48 pm

You can\'t ignore probability.

Junchan stacked with ryanpeikou, the example you give, is actually FAR more rare than yakuman hands like four concealed triplets and thirteen orphans. Therefore it naturally stands to reason that it should score very high. Something that rare cannot be actively abused, per se, just like the double yakuman rule.

Don\'t confuse a \'hard-to-find\' game breaker with a \'statistically almost impossible\' game breaker.

Using your logic, you must think that playing with red fives is totally unacceptable! Their effect is several orders of magnitude more pronounced. Red fives are pretty much tantamount to adding +1 to more or less every hand! Sounds like what you would call an extreme game breaker.

Surely that\'s a double standard?



P.S. Here\'s an example of why i think something like Itsuu should be valued at +1. As it stands, why would you go for a closed Itsuu (which is hard to get, less than 5%) when it is tough to combine with pinfu and cannot stack at all with tanyao, whereas a tanyao + pinfu is worth the same- but is FAR easier to make?? tan pin is at least four times more likely, has no suit restriction and also makes it easier to include a dora!

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