Hypothetical hands - how would these be handled?

[Poochy]

My mind was wandering, and I dreamed up some rather unlikely scenarios where I\'m not sure how the hand would be scored. So, does anybody know how these scenarios would be handled, and/or if there are official rules at all for them?


Scenario 1:
Let\'s say we\'re playing with Fight Club rules, so suuanko is a single yakuman while suuanko tanki-machi is a double yakuman, and you can stack multiple yakuman.

From what I understand, it\'s a fairly common practice for the dealer to save a couple seconds at the start of the hand by taking his 13th tile and his first draw in one grab - once everyone has 12 tiles each, the dealer takes the 1st and 5th tiles from the wall.

Now, let\'s say the dealer\'s first 13 tiles are:

and his/her first drawn tile is a

Would the dealer be able to claim tenhou + suuanko tanki-machi for a triple yakuman if:
A. He/she didn\'t take his first draw early (as described above)?
B. He/she took his first draw early but kept it separate?


Scenario 2:
The dealer\'s initial 14 tiles are:

He/she immediately declares a kan on the chun and draws a 7sou. Can he/she claim tenhou, or only rinshankaihoo? What if this occurred with a non-dealer on the first turn, with no previous pon, chi, or kan by other players? Would he/she be able to call chiihou or renhou?


Scenario 3a:
A player wins with the hand:
Pon:

Now, I can see two ways of counting this hand:
1. Count the 111222333sou as 123 123 123, for iipeekoo (1) + chanta (1) + chun (1) = 3 yaku.
2. Count the 111222333sou as 111 222 333, for sananko (2) + toitoihou (2) + chun (1) = 5 yaku.

Would the player be able to claim iipeekoo + chanta + sananko + toitoihou + chun for 7 total yaku and a haneman, or can he/she only claim option 2 for a mangan?

[zzo38]

Scenario 1: I don\'t know, but whether or not you take your first draw early shouldn\'t make a difference in the scoring. (It might be hard to determine the 2 fu bonus for having only one possible tile to win when East draws early, but with 5 or more han it makes the fu isn\'t important)

Scenario 2: Unsure. (I don\'t use these first-turn yakuman scoring when I play.)

Scenario 3a: You can score a hand only one way, not two ways. If you scored it as 111,222,333,CCC,99 then you have 5 han, which is mangan. You can\'t have one tile used in multiple ways at the same time in your completed hand, so you can\'t score both iipeekoo and sanankou at same time, for example, because they contradict each other.

[Robert]

This reminds me of the following from Tetsuya:

East\'s initial 14 tiles:

and he dies (as in \"departs this life\")

Through my tears (I don\'t often cry at movies), I wondered:
Would this score as:
a) a double yakuman (nine gates plus tenhou)
b) a triple yakuman (nine-way nine gates plus tenhou)
c) nothing (as he did not actually call tsumo before he died)

[Senechal]

1) Don\'t know, don\'t care. Too absurd.
2) No. P/K/C always invalidates most start-hands, tenhou, chihou, renhou where counted, and the abortive draws.
3) Tsumo, count what is worth more. Ron, same but if you have 11-222-333s 99p, your waits would be 1-4s, 9p. Having thrown any of them would make you furiten, and yeah, you\'ll pay 5 han chombo.

for 3a/4) If it\'s not called it doesn\'t count. Same with not counting all your yaku. Once your hand is sloshed, it\'s too late.

[glasnost]

Scenario 1:

There are two ways this can happen: either you\'re playing online or in real life. Online, you get triple yakuman, as the computer keeps track of which tile is your 14th and you\'ll get the single pair wait. In real life, you get no points, because if you argue for more points after getting a double yakuman, the people you\'re playing with will beat you up.

[Ruro]

Scenario 1: is a double yakuman in my perspective, but i think normal (single) yakumans are counted in almost every type of game(because the people dont want to lose too much just because the other player got lucky)
Scenario 2:turn out pretty much as Senechal said, so its \"only\" a rinshan kaihou
Scenario 3: as zzo38 pointed it out its only a mangan because you can only score 1 type of a combination, and of course you must score the biggest possible too :)
as for the 14 tiles Robert asked about its pertty much can be a double or triple yakuman, but as long as you not claim it its worth nothing(and in some type of games puts you in furiten for the tile the you didnt claim for 1 turn)

[HotelFSR]

Scenario 3a:

Only the second option is valid. In the first one you can\'t count Iipeikou because the hand is open.

[Shirluban]

1) Normaly the dealer takes his first draw with his 13th tile, in such a way no one can say what are the 13 first tiles and
which tile is the 14th one. So he can\'t claim anything for winning on a specific tile.

Except for teaching to raw beginners, I\'ve never seen someone take his 14th tile separatly from the 13th. Whatever, cases of \"Heaven blessing\" are sooo rare and reward already so much it won\'t worth worrying about keeping tracks of wich tile is The Holy 14th.
So the question is a bit point-less.


2) Is the initial deal plus a replacment tile equal to the initial deal? No.
Whatever, a kan declaration breaks the go-around, so when the kan is made it\'s not the first turn anymore -> no tenho, no chiho, no renho.


3) You can\'t count iipeikou (two identical chii) if the hand is open. But you may count iisou san jun (three idenical chii) if this yaku is allowed with your rule.

You can not \"re-mix\" the tiles to shift sets into other sets and thus add up physicaly incompatible yaku.

To count \"iipeekoo + chanta + sananko + toitoihou + chun\", you need some thing like (concealed):

... you also need to play another rule, who allow hands 17 tiles long.
Edit: Oupps! Even with this, you don\'t have toitoi.

[iandstanley]

My mind was wandering, and I dreamed up some rather unlikely scenarios where I\'m not sure how the hand would be scored. So, does anybody know how these scenarios would be handled, and/or if there are official rules at all for them?


Scenario 1:
Let\'s say we\'re playing with Fight Club rules, so suuanko is a single yakuman while suuanko tanki-machi is a double yakuman, and you can stack multiple yakuman.

From what I understand, it\'s a fairly common practice for the dealer to save a couple seconds at the start of the hand by taking his 13th tile and his first draw in one grab - once everyone has 12 tiles each, the dealer takes the 1st and 5th tiles from the wall.

Now, let\'s say the dealer\'s first 13 tiles are:

and his/her first drawn tile is a

Would the dealer be able to claim tenhou + suuanko tanki-machi for a triple yakuman if:
A. He/she didn\'t take his first draw early (as described above)?
B. He/she took his first draw early but kept it separate?

The dealers 14th tile is not a draw but part of the deal.

Without Fight Club Rules:
It\'s certainly tenhou by definition and therefore no extra yakuman for a single wait so it would be a question of either 1 or 2 yakuman

In Toudai-shiki (one of the big 3 professional associations) ... once a hand in special (ie yakuman) then ALL other multipliers are irrelevant.

With the EMA the only double yakuman is daisuushi (big four winds)

With FCR I would suspect that the answer is 2yakuman

[iandstanley]

Scenario 2:
The dealer\'s initial 14 tiles are:

He/she immediately declares a kan on the chun and draws a 7sou. Can he/she claim tenhou, or only rinshankaihoo? What if this occurred with a non-dealer on the first turn, with no previous pon, chi, or kan by other players? Would he/she be able to call chiihou or renhou?

Tenhou is not allowed with a concealed kong

Scenario 3a:
A player wins with the hand:
Pon:

Now, I can see two ways of counting this hand:
1. Count the 111222333sou as 123 123 123, for iipeekoo (1) + chanta (1) + chun (1) = 3 yaku.
2. Count the 111222333sou as 111 222 333, for sananko (2) + toitoihou (2) + chun (1) = 5 yaku.

Would the player be able to claim iipeekoo + chanta + sananko + toitoihou + chun for 7 total yaku and a haneman, or can he/she only claim option 2 for a mangan?

HotelFSR please correct me if I\'m wrong

As hotelfsr said option #1 is not valid as hand is open

If you meant

Tsume/Ron:

Then you could claim iipeekoo + chanta + fanpai for the chun = 3 yaku


Option#2 is not valid as sananko and toitoihou are mutually exclusive with an open hand (you\'ve ponned prior to your winning tile)

So as it stands you can claim fanpai plus either sananko or toitoihou giving you 3 yaku

Sananko and Toitoihou can only be counted together if the HAND is menzen (closed) in your example with the chuns ponned it would be an open hand

In Tsume/Ron:
you could claim sananko + toitoihou + fanpai for the chun = 5