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Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:53 pm
by iandstanley
As most sets come with ImageImageImageImage

Looking around the Riichi sites there seems many different options. Even when playing red fives rules seem to differ on whether to use ImageImageImageImage or just ImageImageImage

A lot default to 0 but there are some places where you can play with red fives (tenhou for example) if you know your japanese or have a translation handy.

However, when playing in the real world with a set how many do you play with?

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:57 pm
by Tom Sloper
Three.

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:39 pm
by Ruro
all four or zero, if im getting annoyed at the luck of the other players (and with my bad luck too) I tend to say that we should play with 0 red fives.

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:59 pm
by HotelFSR
I like 0 or 3, but definitely not 4.

Overkill.

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 5:27 am
by Milkmaniac
My friends and I normally play with all 4 ^____^. We thought it was standard (when using red 5\'s) to have 2 red 5 pin.

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 5:47 am
by Tom Sloper
Milkmaniac wrote:We thought it was standard (when using red 5\'s) to have 2 red 5 pin.
Manufacturers needed to add one more tile, otherwise there\'d be a blank space in the tray.

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:32 am
by Milkmaniac
Another Haku couldn\'t hurt ;)

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 8:05 am
by iandstanley
Milkmaniac wrote:My friends and I normally play with all 4 ^____^. We thought it was standard (when using red 5\'s) to have 2 red 5 pin.
I have seen references to discarding warning of the mid pin range especially when playing with red fives because of the two red pins/circles.

I must admit I do like to play with all my tiles of the set except seasons ... why do they still put them in? for the japanese to ceremonially throw them out? I\'d rather have blank spare tiles :)

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 8:39 am
by Bunta
We play without red fives, cuz it only increases the luck factor. Thats why we play with yakitori.
Only some weeks before a tournament we take them in for practice, cuz here in europe they are part of the rules.

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 10:47 am
by HotelFSR
Not sure I understand what you\'re saying about Yakitori, Bunta.

That doesn\'t add skill as far as I can tell, it just encourages at least one fast hand per player- which can be very annoying and doesn\'t really add anything to the game. I always figured it was just for \'friendly\' games, which is why you don\'t see it used in Japanese parlors.


Also, the red fives don\'t just increase luck. They reduce your reliance on good starting hands (there is another post about this) and give you more options about when to fold. Playing with red fives does however make the game easier for beginners because you don\'t have to shoot for specific hands as much.

I\'ve noticed that if you look at the stats of good players, with red fives games there is a bigger gap between the average point size of their \"hands won\" vs. their \"hands thrown\". The hands won are bigger and the hands lost are smaller. Without red fives, those two numbers tend to be a lot closer together. This implies that red fives definitely play into skill, even if they do help out beginners somewhat.

I do feel four red fives is too much though.



I think the skill factor with and without red fives is probably roughly equal, although difficult to compare. It\'s the ura-dora and the ippatsu-menzen that increase the luck excessively, but thankfully those are not used in the JPML league rules. I think the EMA should adapt some rules like that for competition.

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:34 pm
by iandstanley
Tom Sloper wrote:
Milkmaniac wrote:We thought it was standard (when using red 5\'s) to have 2 red 5 pin.
Manufacturers needed to add one more tile, otherwise there\'d be a blank space in the tray.
They could put a blank in instead!

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:03 pm
by HotelFSR
Adding on to my previous comment:

One of the big reasons ura-dora and ippatsu are worse than red fives is because you should ideally be able to know pretty much what your hand is worth before you attempt to win with it.

This is how you make good value judgments, but with sudden ura dora or ippatsu-menzen swings a bad call can be unduly rewarded. Sometimes this can be fun or exciting, but its not ideal for competitions. This is especially true because Mahjong games are long and you can\'t play that many in tournaments to iron out the extra variance.

I suppose ura-dora hits are somewhat like river suckouts in poker. Both can create crazy last-minute swings.

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:15 pm
by Benjamin
HotelFSR wrote:Adding on to my previous comment:

One of the big reasons ura-dora and ippatsu are worse than red fives is because you should ideally be able to know pretty much what your hand is worth before you attempt to win with it.
I agree with your logic, but not the context you\'re putting it in. What if you\'re waiting on a 5?

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:37 pm
by HotelFSR
There\'s still a difference.

With red fives you have some indication of the value you can expect. You can see on the board whether the red fives are out or are likely to be in your opponents\' hands, and you can make decisions accordingly.

Your opponents can also withhold red fives if they suspect you are waiting for one, giving them a line of defense. They can also fold when it looks like you have red fives in your hand, and so on.

With ippatsu and especially ura-dora, realistically you have no useful information about whether you are likely to get extra value from your hand or not.

You also have the option to pass up a regular five and wait to draw a red one, much like you can pass up any winning discard and wait for a concealed self draw bonus. That\'s why ura-dora are worse.

Re:Red fives - 3 or 4 or 0?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:43 pm
by Milkmaniac
Is that true of the JPML/EMA rules? I think in some rules temporary furiten is just furiten (no win possible.) I seem to remember Tenhou haku-blocking me on that once.