game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Japanese Reach Mahjong Rules. Strategy, news, sets - anything!

Moderator: Shirluban

HotelFSR
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 am
Location: Federated States of Micronesia

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by HotelFSR » Thu May 21, 2009 5:19 pm

Why not point out what is bad and why?

Seems to be working for me since my rating is over 2000 at the moment and i\'m in the top 20 at the site I play on.


Always eager to learn though!

Yttrasil
Fresh Reacher
Fresh Reacher
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:11 am

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by Yttrasil » Thu May 21, 2009 5:44 pm

Good to hear you are =)

3.32 7m or 34s though easily 7m since his 5m kann alot safer... 4:32 7m again or 3-4s 4:48 7s bad 7p obviously 7p is best.

Watch and you will see why on those other occations =)

HotelFSR
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 am
Location: Federated States of Micronesia

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by HotelFSR » Thu May 21, 2009 11:27 pm

Will go back and watch.

Sure, there are some small mistakes in the order of my discards although that mostly comes from unrehearsed live casting and playing at the same time. I\'ve never done that before and it\'s much harder than I expected, especially with the time limits :)

The purpose of the video is mainly to illustrate concepts. I would never play a rated game while talking off the top of my head at the same time!

I don\'t see glaring errors though, although I\'ll check the video again.


Generally though, and this is a personal thing, I don\'t necessarily always throw my safest tiles first. Reason being that later in the round there is an increased chance that several people will be ready (especially on tables where nobody seems to fold), and you want the safest tiles possible when this happens.

In some cases you want to get rid of your most dangerous tiles first, although this is risky. You want to get rid of dangerous tiles before they become too dangerous. If you play maximally safe defense your win percentage will suffer a little.

I\'ve found that playing this way is actually what finally pushed me from the 1900 rating range and into the 2000 range.

Osamu
Fresh Reacher
Fresh Reacher
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:29 am

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by Osamu » Fri May 22, 2009 1:59 am

Just a request for your next video: the normal room on tenhou is weak, maybe for your next video you should play with stronger players?

HotelFSR
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 am
Location: Federated States of Micronesia

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by HotelFSR » Fri May 22, 2009 9:20 am

Sure thing.

I actually always play on the high-level room on Toupaiou. I was using Tenhou because the flash mode was less of a drain on my computer speed for recording purposes, and I could play anonymously so that there would be no penalty for messing up (playing while commenting on everything and reading waits is hard).

What I can do, however, is use my old account on Toupaiou which has crappy stats so it doesn\'t affect my ranking. It still allows me access to the higher lobby, so I can play against better players.

I\'ll make a video there and upload it for you guys.

HotelFSR
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 am
Location: Federated States of Micronesia

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by HotelFSR » Fri May 22, 2009 10:45 am

Yttrasil: went back and watched the video.

Have to say I don\'t agree with your discard comments. The point of reading waits is that it allows you to play more aggressively and pursue ready more strongly without dealing into hands or having to fold.

You mention:


3.32 7m or 34s though easily 7m since his 5m kann alot safer

I threw the 2 because that was better for my hand and I had already read his wait as 6-9m (correctly). I deliberately preferred to keep the 7s pair as insurance, since I didn\'t feel the other players were ready yet.

First, they are good multi-way safe tiles. Second, and more importantly, after throwing pins (a suit which I had not yet discarded) I gave the signal to other players that I was ready and bluffed that pins were dangerous against me. Since I was waiting on the reacher\'s furiten tiles, I was increasing the chances that I would win even if the other players folded, throwing non-pin tiles!

This is one way you can take advantage of reads.


4:32 7m again or 3-4s 4:48 7s bad 7p obviously 7p is best.

After the player on the left threw the 6p which I stole, I feared he might be ready and had some suspicion that the his 6 was a matagi for a 4-7p wait. I threw the earlier 2p because I did not expect a 2-5 given that half the 3p & 4p were out and I suspected the player opposite had others, making the wait quite unlikely- instead suggesting the more likely danger of 4-7. That is why I did not throw the 7p once the player on the left threatened ready!


You might not have noticed this so I thought I\'d point it out =)

The reasons are not always as obvious as you might think.

Yttrasil
Fresh Reacher
Fresh Reacher
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:11 am

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by Yttrasil » Fri May 22, 2009 7:42 pm

I don\'t care about your current rating or what you really think is the best, what is important in any game of the sort is what is good in the long run nothing else and your discards on those occations are unacceptable! Don\'t have time nor the energy to argue against that but those I mentioned are 100% better than your discards in any way. There are surely alot more mistakes in the other parts of your movies but I just didn\'t take my time to watch and comment those parts. I know it\'s hard to accept mistakes and improve especially in these kinds of games but if you don\'t then you\'ll never be a winning player on the higher levels. Please trust me on that and you still have a long way to go to reach my level of play ;) And I know I\'m being rude and a bit too so to say \"That i know more than you\" but then again there is a reason for that... So please look again and reconsider your choises I promise you that I\'ve given this game alot more thought than you have and again I\'m a very good poker player and I think both these games are very similar and the same thought process is needed to succeed in both of these... :blush:

HotelFSR
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 am
Location: Federated States of Micronesia

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by HotelFSR » Fri May 22, 2009 11:30 pm

Your choices were great, but based on folding rather than pushing with a read. That\'s not what the video was about. Playing 100% defensively as you suggest is not so hard to do that it escapes me.


What exactly is your \"level of play\" that is so much higher than mine?

Please inform me.


If my decisions were really so bad \"in the long run\" then I would not have an average 1st place percentage of 38% and a 4th place percentage of 12.5% (which means I win more than three times as much as I lose) over more than 200 hanchan. This is on the \'higher level\' tables you speak of, at least pretty much as high as it\'ll get online. So while I can definitely improve, I\'m still at a better level than you seem to imply.

That is not just beginners luck.

Moreover...

Your attitude more than anything else seems to suggest that you are not as good in poker or at mahjong as you claim you are.

Personally I make a living playing poker so I know something about this kind of game!

These games both require logic and you seem to avoid talking about it at all costs, instead claiming the high ground insisting you don\'t want to waste time explaining.

I\'ve met enough poker players to know the type. I always find the best players, even famous ones, are happy to explain and teach. You made no effort to address my responses, so you have to forgive me if I find your approach a little suspicious.

Osamu
Fresh Reacher
Fresh Reacher
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:29 am

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by Osamu » Sat May 23, 2009 1:10 am

>>This is on the \'higher level\' tables you speak of, at least pretty much as high as it\'ll get online

Yttrasil probably means the 4dan+ room on tenhou. I also doubt Toupaiou\'s dan room is the \"highest\" level of play for online Japanese mahjong. Tenhou\'s Phoenix room probably is.

HotelFSR
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 am
Location: Federated States of Micronesia

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by HotelFSR » Sat May 23, 2009 1:31 am

There aren\'t even enough players to actually get a game on the phoenix room most of the time.

I also have an account on Tenhou where I play on the 4dan+ lobby and I\'ve been able to rack up a similar record, doesn\'t seem much different. The Elo rating system also theoretically creates numbers that are comparable across sites.

I prefer to play on Toupaiou because I like the chat functions with online friends and I don\'t want to pay for 3D graphics.

Soon enough I should be breaking 2000 on Tenhou as well and maybe I\'ll even see Yttrasil in the phoenix room :)

Keep you guys posted!

hirohurl
Senior Reacher
Senior Reacher
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:55 pm
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Contact:

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by hirohurl » Sat May 23, 2009 6:07 am

Yttrasil wrote:what is important in any game of the sort is what is good in the long run nothing else and your discards on those occations are unacceptable! Don\'t have time nor the energy to argue against that but those I mentioned are 100% better than your discards in any way.
Hi Yttrasil,

I hope you WILL find the time, energy and courtesy to back up your comments with arguments otherwise we might begin to think that you are all mouth and trousers.:ohmy:

Best wishes,

DH

Benjamin
Senior Reacher
Senior Reacher
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:49 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by Benjamin » Sat May 23, 2009 6:18 am

I agree with hirohurl. I think that the video HotelFSR was well made and I think its great that people are discussing it. But if you don\'t actually say why, you don\'t have much to stand on. Being high ranked on a free internet mahjong server doesn\'t count for much, especially since tenhou and toupaiou are very new.

Yttrasil
Fresh Reacher
Fresh Reacher
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:11 am

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by Yttrasil » Sat May 23, 2009 8:16 am

Well maybe not as good as you in poker I have no idea but I also make a living out of it and have so for the past 4 years... and I don\'t claim my mahjong skills are good at all rather lately I think I suck since I find so many errors in my play I\'ve just come to realise but still I\'m better than most here from what I\'ve read from you and others. Also 200 games arn\'t alot as you surely know from poker that sample size is too little and a 38% winning percentage is just ridiculously high also a 12.5% losing one so the only thing that tells me is that people on toupaiou play kinda bad and you are alot better than them. =)

The thing with the attitude I know and there is a reason for it, poker players in general have a hard time listening to others since they many times they think they play perfect etc so with it I tried to make you change your mind especially after you disagreed with me again.
Anyhow enough about that i do like to explain and teach but I dislike when people think they are god and won\'t listen ;)

Okay so will do this once again then and try to explain! :)

So lets see...

3:32 you here throw one of the more dangerous tiles the 2p which especially in regard to his riichi is very not safe also very few of that suit discarded in general and even though you have the 334455 you can see on the table and in your hand it\'s a very likely win for him. Also the 2p throw doesn\'t progress your hand more than a 7m throw will since you already have your pair in the 22 of the 2234455. Also the 7m is very safe since he kanned the 5m which only makes it possible for him to wait on in the case of 68 89 and a pair/three of a kind and these last ones are very improbable. Also the 7m is alot safer to throw in regard to the other players too again because of the 5m kann. So you move further keep your hand 1 sha ten and play much safer.

4:34 The 6s throw is just bad, you are in tempai and should try as good as you can to stay there as you know. The 6s is very safe in regard to the player who has riiched cause of his 9s and the player to your left 3s throw also the player to the right threw the 45s making it 100% sure since he won\'t be waiting for 57 but then it is not safe to the player opposite you nor to your left even though that is quite safe. Again the 7p you cannot discard for sure but what you obviously could do here is again throw the 7m since they are VERY safe or even better 3s which is safe or the 4s which also is safe but generally the 3 is better cause someone else might more likely be waiting for a 4s then just get a 7m 56789p 23456s and get into tempai again if the 7p proves safe or just change your wait and incorporate it by throwing the 34s. There is more reasoning here too but kind of minuscule stuff.

So what strong points does the 6s have against 3s here is what you need to consider and I cannot find a single one especially when you say you want to keep attacking winning winning all the time... :unsure:

4:48 Hand is almost over you won\'t get into tempai and again you throw an unsafe tile where the 3s is dead safe the 7p you got before is dead safe and quite safe 4s and 7m.

Hope this will clear things up a little...

Looking forward to see what you can archive on tenhou or such for sure and would love to see new movies from you since they are very instructive and fun to listen to also your voice is great.

Also do agree with you there Benjamin but also hope you will go watch the video on those parts I commented on, it would be appreciated to clear things up.

And again many poker players are very thick headed and I can often be one of those and I\'ve found that being a bit harsh works the best to help players improve in poker on forums and the same goes for mahjong most certainly. :blush:

HotelFSR
Expert Reacher
Expert Reacher
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 am
Location: Federated States of Micronesia

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by HotelFSR » Sat May 23, 2009 10:58 am

Thanks for the response.


Just to clear a few things up:



* I\'m not trying to imply that doing well on a free internet site is much in the grand scheme of things. Obviously it\'s a whole different ball game when you play for money, etc. and I\'m clearly not in the top level of the really serious players out there. I simply use it to point out that I\'m probably better than you seem to imply- I also assume that most if not all of your experience against non-beginners is online as well if like me you don\'t live in Japan!

* As far as the poker attitude goes, I have to say I\'ve encountered the opposite. In general I\'ve found poker players as a community to be a level-headed, thoughtful and welcoming bunch with great attitudes. I\'ve encountered far worse in the non-japanese-playing-mahjong category, to be honest.

I certainly don\'t think I am god and it seems that most would agree you\'re the one coming off more that way at the moment! You have to forgive us for that.

* There are mistakes in the video and it is designed to show concepts, not demonstrate a perfect game. I did only one live take each, off the top of my head, so I was deliberately playing riskier discards off a read to show how you can win without necessarily choosing the safest discards from an overall point of view. Doesn\'t mean that it was necessarily the perfect strategy in that particular hand, I just didn\'t want to retake the video a hundred times waiting for the right situation to demonstrate!




* 3:32. I obviously agree that 7m is safer. That\'s not the point. The purpose of the 2p, as I said, was a bluff that I was ready and waiting on pins. I thought that some of my remaining winners might have been in the other players\' hands and that this might get them out if they decided to fold, especially since they were safe against the reach. But no, of course, it is not the safest go-to choice.

I was just trying to squeeze some value out of a read.

Making the safest choice was not the topic of the video, and I played this way only to make a point. It was an attempt to win an unfavorable hand, which is a strategy you sometimes need to employ (although not actually necessary in that hand, only for demonstration).

The 5 kan makes the 7 pretty much safe against all players, and I kept the pair both as insurance and for another reason discussed at the end of the post.


* 4:34. Again, I agree that 6s is clearly not the safest. Not the point. I wanted to keep two sided waits to chi from the left player if the 7p became safe and I could get back into tenpai (albeit furiten but I\'d stay dealer). I agree that 7m might have been a better play overall, but part of me was instinctively worried about a closed wait on the 7 (because while I correctly suspected 6-9 I had two of the 7m required to make a 7,8 shuntsu) and the closed wait 7 could be dangerous versus any player. The 6m and 8m needed for the closed wait were completely unaccounted for.

Sure, 7m is just as good if not better if you discount that. It\'s not so clear cut though.

* 4:48. Again, based on the previous logic this wasn\'t too bad although 7m may have been better if you discount the closed wait idea. I don\'t think it\'s likely that the left hand player was waiting for the 7s, and it was 100% safe versus the other two. The pins don\'t look too safe against the other two players, and they both discarded from their hand after the 7p was dropped by the reacher so there were no guarantees it wasn\'t still a possibility.


Ultimately, though, this is all pretty much a moot point because...

When I eventually drew the 9m, which I correctly read as the reach wait, I would have had to give up my tenpai no matter what. That was what I wanted the video to show.

I had wanted to keep the 7m pair so that I had a slight chance of incorporating the dangerous 6m or 9m into my tenpai wait. If that happened I\'d also be able to drop a safe 7m on tenpai, making it look like I\'d folded rather than pushed!

I was waiting for a 6m, 7m, 8m or 9m to incorporate into my hand. I could match his wait with a 78m shuntsu, maybe even a 7778m shape, or a closed wait with a 7m9m kanchan, or even just use up a 6m with a 67m shuntsu.

I really like to eat up my opponents\' tenpai tiles into my own waits. Even if it wasn\'t the absolute best strategy here I wanted to demonstrate it in case I pulled it off on video.

I guess my atama-hane fantasies get the better of me!

Yttrasil
Fresh Reacher
Fresh Reacher
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:11 am

Re:game recording for analysis. Good or bad idea?

Post by Yttrasil » Sat May 23, 2009 11:16 am

That concept of luring opponents you are tempai is faulty here, it won\'t help you but rather handicap you also you forget this is a low level game people are stupid you should focus ONLY on solid play not fancy play and especially so if it\'s an instructory video aimed at beginners who really are the only people this video should be aimed at since it won\'t help better players.

Well some people in the poker community are and I think you are the type especially after you so much ignore many of my important points in my post.

Again I pointed out some standard faulty plays and your idea of progressing the hand while playing more unsafe is just worse than my idea of play here which is play almost 100% safe and progress the hand just as fast and even alot faster especially in the 2nd and 3rd case. Like 4:34 just wtf your throw has NO ADVANTAGE AT ALL over a 3s throw, honestly and I clearly said that 3s was the choise here yet you argue the 7m throw which is also ALOT better than yours!!! Please if you don\'t get this one then there is no reason even to argue against you any more since you just won\'t get it.

I did my best to argue and explain why, can only hope some other people here will help me convince you if this isn\'t enough... cause it seems I can\'t :angry:

Post Reply