Dragon symbols on mahjong dice?

[Barticle]

Hi all. Noob question ahoy!

I´m playing Reach on video games and don´t own a mahjong set but I was looking at some in a shop at the weekend. (mmmm...)

I know that many sets come with a dice (or die!) marked with the wind symbols which sits in a plastic holder to indicate the round wind.

I noticed that some sets had a dice with dragon symbols on. I´ve found a pic of some - see below.

Does this serve a purpose in any version of mahjong or do the red and green dragon symbols just fill the two blank sides of the wind indicator dice?



(the red dragon in yellow on the red dice looks weird!)

[HotelFSR]

I was wondering the same thing. My set with numerals on it has one of these.

They are not used in reach mahjong, at any rate.

[Tom Sloper]

While I imagine that some people have come up with a use for the dragon sides of those dice, my theory is that the manufacturers put them on there for solely aesthetic reasons.

The cubes were originally made as wind indicators. Most Asian forms of mahjong are played with four rounds, and the die is placed in a holder with the current round wind visible on the top. A set comes with one die, and the holder. The two blank sides were decorated with dragon symbols so they wouldn\'t be blank.

It\'s possible to buy multiple dice, and play a poker dice game with them. A few years ago I expanded on that idea.

[Barticle]

They are not used in reach mahjong, at any rate.

I´ve read a few books recently which cover different versions of the game and don´t remember seeing anything they might be used for...

I would have remembered seeing six-player Mahjong with a hexagonal wall, six rounds to a game, and each player having either a seat wind or seat dragon! :laugh:

[Barticle]

Most Asian forms of mahjong are played with four rounds

So of course with Reach it\'s not just the dragon sides that are redundant but the north and west sides too! We could make do with a coin/counter for east and south but the wind dice lets you play a full four-round game if desired.

a poker dice game

Cool! :)

Thanks for the replies guys.

[Shirluban]

The cubes were originally made as wind indicators. Most Asian forms of mahjong are played with four rounds, and the die is placed in a holder with the current round wind visible on the top. A set comes with one die, and the holder. The two blank sides were decorated with dragon symbols so they wouldn\'t be blank.

I would have say quite the same thing but with less words and less explainations, so thank you Tom!

We could make do with a coin/counter for east and south

It\'s exactly what is done for Riichi Mahjong.

[Barticle]

It´s exactly what is done for Riichi Mahjong.

Ah, good. Great minds think alike! ;)

I´m only playing on video games and I actually often only play a half game - specifically half a Reach game, i.e. only one round.

This is the quicker way to rack up points which is handy because the mahjong game is only a small part of a much larger game where you can convert the points to prizes/money! Also there´s a big uma (+25k/0/-10k/-15k) so it´s good to win as many games as possible.

Another benefit of playing a half game is that you never have to check the round wind! :laugh:

[HotelFSR]

This is the quicker way to rack up points which is handy because the mahjong game is only a small part of a much larger game where you can convert the points to prizes/money! Also there´s a big uma (+25k/0/-10k/-15k) so it´s good to win as many games as possible.


Half games are actually not a better way to rack up points, because although they are half the length they also inherently have double the luck factor.

You will win more, but also lose more, so it doesn\'t really save you any time. It\'s not really a money making proposition. However, video game CPUs tend to be so easy that you\'ll be able to win almost all the time anyway :)

In the mahjong minigame of Ryu ga Gotoku 2 it\'s easy to come in first place 80% of the time or more!

[Barticle]

Heh, yeah I am actually alternating between playing Reach in Yakuza 2 (the English subtitled version of Ryu ga Gotoku 2) and in the untranslated samurai spin-off, Ryu ga Gotoku: Kenzan.

Given that you can win the majority of the time, with half games I can play (win) twice as many games in any given period of time and get that juicy uma twice as often! :laugh:

(So technically I´m racking up those points *after* the games rather than during them. I shouldn´t have said \"also\" in my last post - it´s all about the uma!)

[iandstanley]

I noticed that some sets had a dice with dragon symbols on. I´ve found a pic of some - see below.

Does this serve a purpose in any version of mahjong or do the red and green dragon symbols just fill the two blank sides of the wind indicator dice?

I have been playing mahjong for about 30 years ... mostly Chinese mahjong until recently.

Chinese Mahjong


Traditionally these dice were held in a disc with a square slot in it for indicating both the wind of the round and the dealer.

At the beginning of each full round you would place the die in the holder with the prevailing wind facing up.

The red and green dragon sides are just ornamental and used to fill up the blank sides. These dragons were chosen for their "lucky" connection.

In the last few years the discs have been dropped by a number of manufacturers and you start to see just the dice.

These dice have started to appear on ebay as part of a set with regular dice (often shown with a wind or dragon on the "1" spot) for determining the wall split.

Riichi/Reach Mahjong


Reach uses a flat square disc (Matsuoka) showing East on the front and South on the Reverse.

If you have a chinese set, you can drop the seasons/flowers and use the east/south faces from the die.



Types of Indicators that you may come across



1. Wind Indicator Discs from an Traditional American Mahjong Set
2. Bettor from an American Mahjong Set
3. Traditional Chinese indicator
4. Wind Indicator from a Modern American Mahjong Set
5. Japanese Wind Indicator Matsuoka used in Riichi/Reach

And Finally...



You may come across Yakitori markers (Tessera). These are used in Japanese mahjong (incl Riichi). These are not in the offical rules but have become common place. Each player has one and it is placed on the table. Once a player wins a game they flip over the marker. At the end of the game the markers are examined and any player who has failed to turn over their Yakitori has to pay a forfeit!

[HotelFSR]

I\'m pretty sure Matsuoka is just a brand name.

The wind mark is called the \'chicha\' marker as far as I know.

[Barticle]

Hi Ian, many thanks for the comprehensive reply. :)

I have been playing mahjong for about 30 years ... mostly Chinese mahjong until recently.

So did you just fancy a change or do you prefer Reach...?

Reach uses a flat square disc (Matsuoka) showing East on the front and South on the Reverse.

Ah yes, I´ve seen this on screenshots of some Japanese games.

I can read the word/name Matsuoka on that picture - if I spend about a minute looking up each katakana! :lol:

You may come across Yakitori markers (Tessera). [...] has to pay a forfeit!

I have seen the markers for sale and read about the rule. I think the forfeit is equal to Mangan points? Ouch!

[Tom Sloper]

I think the forfeit is equal to Mangan points? Ouch!

No. Not that high. More like the noten forfeit.

[HotelFSR]

On Toupaiou you can play with yakitori, in which case the payment depends on how many people fail to win a hand.

The penalty (if I recall correctly) is 15,000 if you are the only one having failed to win a hand, 10,000 each for two, or 5,000 each for three.

This penalty is shared among the other players.



I\'ve never actually heard of penalties as small as the one Tom mentioned, but who knows, there are a lot of variations out there.

[iandstanley]

Hi Ian, many thanks for the comprehensive reply. :)

No problem ... thought it would be better in one place rather than 15 pages of short entries

iandstanley wrote:
I have been playing mahjong for about 30 years ... mostly Chinese mahjong until recently.

So did you just fancy a change or do you prefer Reach...?

I moved from european chess to shogi and Xiangqi then I bought a regular Trad. Chinese set and played that.

After about a decade I met up with a bloke who was brought up in the states so I played US mah jongg (without their special hands) for a year or two.

Next I drifted into Chinese Casino House Rules

• trad. chinese; no chow
• hidden discards
  
  You do not declare the discard but show the tile to each player in turn about 1 second each.
  
  It is very tough but improves your play no end
• limited choice of special hands

I learned of the Chinese Government update in 98 and after a bit of looking came across Pritchards "The New Mahjong" which I bought. Prichard\'s book describes the rules well and has a good beginners discard quiz; but strangely opts for a 80 page description of the possible hands instead of just a list (c.f. European Reach Rules Summary) which makes it a little difficult to assimulate ... so I put the book on the bookshelf for a decade and ignored it until recently.

I knew the Japanese played mahjong but I knew of no English Translation available (pre-internet). Found the name Riichi whilst looking for a new set (blundered on Yellow Mountain) and then spent over two months trying to find the rules (riichi seems to be a very common name in Japan!).

Been playing Riichi/Reach for a few months now after finding the european riichi rules at http://eng.riichi.nl/rules.htm and took a instant liking to it.

I\'ve also picked up Eleanor Whitneys fabulous book and have familiarised myself with the more-modern Chinese presented there which I also like. [EDITED: correction I meant more modern approach when compared to the original 1920s rules that propagate the UK]


So Whats My Favourite
I really like both modern /international chinese and japanese rules. I prefer Modern Chinese to Ari Ari (Modern Japanese). But the tension and speed of Riichi/Reach brings a fresh approach and I tend to play this exclusively online .. playing Mod/Chinese, Ari Ari or Riichi when face to face depending on the opponents.

You may come across Yakitori markers (Tessera). [...] has to pay a forfeit!

I have seen the markers for sale and read about the rule. I think the forfeit is equal to Mangan points? Ouch!

In social games I read that the forfeit often takes the form of one or more round of drinks rather than a monetary loss.