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Rules & Questioning

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:20 am
by wyce
1. Is it possible to self kan or the last discard tile? I always thought the dead wall has to be replenished with an addition tile, but if there are no tiles left how does that work?

2. For the Iipeiko hand(closed of course) , does it already have to be assembled in your hand to count as a yaku (also it\'s the only yaku u have) or can you wait on any of the tiles that will complete your ipeiko? So, far i\'ve been playing with, it already has to be assembled for it to count; reason being, I took the rule from the Su anko, to ron of others it must be a single wait otherwise a dual pon wait will turn into 3 concealed triplets. (unless tsumo)

3. If you discard a 9 pin and somebody chi or pon that 9 pin, does that 9 Pin act as one of your furiten tiles?

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:47 am
by ironmanmj
1. No self kan on last tile (pretty sure but not 100% sure)

2. yes u can ron on discard for the iipeiko to complete the hand.

3.yes furiten still applies. It is still one of your discards after all.

:laugh:

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:24 am
by wyce
omg, thank-you very much!
Regarding the su anko, does it have to be a single wait to ron of others?

Nvm i figured out the su anko thing. thanks anyways!

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:51 pm
by iandstanley
1. I always thought the dead wall has to be replenished with an addition tile, but if there are no tiles left how does that work?
Tiles are not replenished in Riichi

There are four kan tiles and if the fourth is declared (EXCEPTION BELOW) then the hand is declared dead.

EXCEPTION: If all four kans are from the same player then play continues ... no other kans can be declared

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:01 pm
by chalwa
iandstanley, you are wrong (not about 4 kans, but the dead wall). Dead wall in riichi always have 14 tiles. So when you are doing Kan dead wall is replenished, but tile is added to the other end (not where those 4 kan tiles are) - the end closer to the living wall, so in fact you dont have to move anything, just have to know the game will end one (or how may kans there are) earlier. So you cant Kan on a last tile, because it would make dead wall be only 13 tiles.

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:01 pm
by iandstanley
wyce wrote:3. If you discard a 9 pin and somebody chi or pon that 9 pin, does that 9 Pin act as one of your furiten tiles?
Hence, partially, the requirement to rotate the discard to indicate who threw it (though why MCR rotates the tiles is a mystery as there is no furiten)

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:43 pm
by Tom Sloper
iandstanley wrote:
wyce wrote:3. If you discard a 9 pin and somebody chi or pon that 9 pin, does that 9 Pin act as one of your furiten tiles?
Hence, partially, the requirement to rotate the discard to indicate who threw it (though why MCR rotates the tiles is a mystery as there is no furiten)
"Furiten indicator" isn\'t the only possible reason to rotate a tile in an exposure. Another (very good) reason is to aid in reading the table - to see from whom a particular exposure was made.

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:37 am
by wyce
haha, thanks a lot guys; very useful!

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:02 am
by wyce
I have another question!
1. Does the Honroutou mix with toi toi?

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:38 am
by chalwa
Yes and to say more always. So its always worth 2fan for honroto and 2fan for toitoi. Because it very hard to make honroto, just 2fan would be small win, but in reality its worth at least 4 fan, which is in that case mangan, so its decent:]

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:55 am
by wyce
Ty!
Sorry for the constant bumping with questions D:
1.So if more is always true, then does the ryan peiko mix with chitoitsu?
2.~chanta and junchan?

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:48 am
by Monadology
wyce wrote: 1.So if more is always true, then does the ryan peiko mix with chitoitsu?
I\'m pretty sure this is not the case, seeing as you would have to break up the structure of the hand different ways to get it to count as both. Just like, I can\'t be waiting on the following formation: 12345 on a 3 or 6 to complete it and count it both as an edge wait (for mini-points) and an open wait (for pinfu).
wyce wrote:2.~chanta and junchan?
I don\'t know, but I don\'t think so. Certainly when I play online they don\'t. This differs from toi toi and honroutou in that toi toi and honroutou have criteria dealing with different aspects of the hand. Honroutou has to do with the outside-ness of your hand, while toi toi has to do with the kind of melds involved in it.

Both chanta and junchanta are focusing on the same criteria with one being, basically, a more specific version of the other.

Or it could be simpler: Chanta may just require honors in it. Hence any junchanta hand couldn\'t be a chanta as well. Just like both junchanta and chanta require at least one run and as such don\'t stack with honroutou.

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:04 am
by Senechal
wyce wrote:Ty!
Sorry for the constant bumping with questions D:
1.So if more is always true, then does the ryan peiko mix with chitoitsu?
2.~chanta and junchan?
1 - This is the only real one that needs extra explanations. You can\'t mix either of the peiko hands with 7 pairs because fundamentally, those hands are still the classic 4 melds and a pair, not 6 pairs and a pair. With the single copy straight, it\'s obvious, but with a double, the same logic here applies. You\'ll also want to count extra yaku if they present themselves (like pinfu and chanta : the former requires the open end straight along with the 3 others complete and the pair, the latter only works for 778899 if they are grouped as 789 and 789 , not 77, 88, 99.) Ryanpeiko is a nuttier hand to arrange to get the wait with the maximum potential points, if you can hit it, it\'s big. Especially with a hand like 234 234 2233444 , the last group is on a complex wait. Sanshoku (triple straight) and pinfu with the 1, tanyao with 2 or 3 (sanshoku is broken), tan-pin-ryanpeiko-sanshoku with the 4 (the last one available).

And if you\'ve previously thrown any of those tiles, you\'re in furiten. It\'s not a hand I\'d consciously aim for, but good to know of the extra points.

2- Chanta and junchan is like comparing it to honitsu and chinitsu. One is a direct upgrade on the other. The poker equivalent would be calling QQQQ3 "two pairs of queens" which is technically correct but in reality, it\'s something beyond two pairs.

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:25 am
by iandstanley
ryan peiko mix with chitoitsu
No .... because in chiitoitsu you are creating a series of 7 special sets of pairs and to claim ryan peiko you would have to break up those sets (Chii toitsu is effectively a low scoring special hand consisting of special sets of pairs ... in a similar fashion to Koku shimusou (13 orphans) is a high scoring special hand consisting of 14 sets of prescribed single tiles)

In a similar vein, see example below for rule #3 ... you cannot count a tile in one set for one pattern and then count it in another set for another pattern (this is common precept for all the major pattern based mahjong rulesets including Riichi, MCR, WSoM).

These pattern based rules score based upon the types of sets in the hand (see below) and the special features of the tiles running (see attributes below).

Sets

Basically, your hand consists of combinations of the following:
  • pairs (usually one, chitoitsu being both the exception and a special hand),
  • chows,
  • pungs,
  • kongs
  • and special hands

You cannot have a tile that is counted in two of these sets above. Therefore, for example, you cannot claim for a hand of four kongs and four chows at the same time.

Attributes
You can combine however, attribute based scoring UNLESS one attribute implies another attribute.

chanta and junchan
No ... it would contradict rule of thumb #1 below .... a Chanta hand could be made from no honours theorectically but would only be claimed by mistake. Junchan taiyai is a subset of chanta (by dropping the allowed honours) and therefore is included in the valuation of Junchan



The general rule of thumb (which applies to Riichi, MCR and WSoM rules) is
  1. If one pattern implies another then you cannot claim the second.
  2. If in the subset of a hand you have has a certain property with one set of tiles and another property with the full set or an extended subset then you can claim for both subject to rules #1 above.
  3. Once melded tiles cannot be broken up to make different sets ALSO upon claiming ron/tsumo the player must clearly indicate the individual chows/pung/kongs as he intends to score them so that you do not claim the same tile in a chow and a pung.

examples:

with rule #1
this ensures that you cannot claim chiho and menzen tsumo because chiho can only be collected self-drawn and concealed by definition and therefore must already include menzen tsumo.

with rule #2
It is possible to have a hand say 1-dot2-dot3-dot 1-dot2-dot3-dot 2-dot3-dot4-dot 2-dot3-dot4-dot 6-dot6-dot
Here we have Iipeikou twice (both 1-dot2-dot3-dot and 1-dot2-dot3-dot) and all tiles are dots and so we can claim chinitsu as well.

Similarly rule #2 would allow you to claim Iipeikou and San shoku doujun (Mixed Triple Chow)

Similarly a hand 1-dot2-dot3-dot 4-dot5-dot6-dot 4-dot5-dot6-dot 7-dot8-dot9-dot 1-dot1-dot would claim Itsu plus chinitsu as Itsu can be claimed with any head therefore does not include chinitsu AND chinitsu can be claimed with pungs therefore does not prescribe anything except one suit, no honours. In MCR rules this hand would get you a pure straight, pure double chow and full flush

with rule #3
If you have CONCEALED in your hand 1-dot1-dot1-dot1-dot 2-dot2-dot2-dot2-dot 3-dot3-dot3-dot3-dot you can claim either Ryan peikou (twice pure double chow) OR San kan tsu (3 kongs). If that same hand was partially melded with say 1-dot2-dot3-dot open on the table then you cannot claim San Kan Tsu

Re:Rules & Questioning

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:19 pm
by Senechal
^^^^In Riichi mahjong, claiming 3 kans is the result of 3 explicit kan melds. If you hold all 12 tiles in your hand and then wait on a single tile or 4 and 5 if you are holding 4/5, they aren\'t kans both by definition and use.

1111222233335 : 4p will give you chinitsu only, 5p will give you 3 Concealed triples (sanankou) because your hand is functionally 111 222 333 123 55