Rules & Questioning

Japanese Reach Mahjong Rules. Strategy, news, sets - anything!

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iandstanley
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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by iandstanley » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:00 pm

claiming 3 kans is the result of 3 explicit kan melds.
Actually, there are three ways to have a kong:

1. Melding a pung into a kong as you describe
2. Extending a Melded pung into a kong

and 3. drawing 4 identical tiles, declaring it as a CONCEALED Kong and placing it aside on the table (most japanese rules require one or more tiles to be face up ... though some rules and quite a number of non-japanese rules allow them to be placed on the table face down ... which in my opinion is fairer as declaring a kong puts you at a disadvantage compared to using the same four tiles in two or more sets). The Kong even though concealed is still considered part of your hand. If you got to the point of self drawing these tiles you would consider at least at this point which hand you wished to score it as. If it was with the kongs you would declare them and draw your missing tiles to enable you to complete your hand.

The statement I made above is a incomplete partial hand only waiting on 1 or 4 tiles depending on your choice of ryan-peikou or san kan tsu.

Normally you would have decided that the 3 kongs score more and go for that ...... But if you find you\'re against an early reach and find that you draw the remaining 1,2,3 dot safely discarding you could easily find that you could be in a reach situation with ryan peikou particularly if you have as half your head another dot then you could reach waiting for the remaining dot giving you ryan-peikou & chinitsu.

1111222233335 : 4p will give you chinitsu only
Again here you are assuming that one would decide to go out on this rather than declare the kongs.

If you were dealt 1111 2222 333 and drew the final 3 in the first couple of draws you would more likely declare san kan tsu than later. Effectively giving you three extra draws to improve your hand. If you are oya/east and have a east in your hand .... I\'d be tempted to go 3 kans and draw an extra 3 tiles hoping to pull an east from the kong box to end up with san kan tsu & fanpai & hoitsu ... haneman! In a midgame hand where my opponents have melded a few dot sets, I might be tempted as well .... the possibility of ryan peikou + chinitsu not looking good and a few odd tiles of dragons, seart or round winds in hand ... I may consider declaring the concealed kongs and pulling 3 from the kong box hoping to pair off the wind/dragons for ryan peikou + honitsumaybe getting up to mangan (or even a haneman if I am dealer and pair off my wind plus either menzen tsumo or riichi).

Later in the game, say in the midgame, you are almost certain to go the ryan peikou approach and reach with a likely mixed hand.

You have to consider not only what you have in the hand, but how early in the game, discards, opponents melded sets and the overall points situation before you decide on which approach to make.

There is no point going for chinitsu or ryan peikou only if you are behind and need a mangan or haneman to pulll enough points near the end of the match to get through to the next round of a tournament.

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by wyce » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:47 am

:OO so many explanations!
But, i got my answer(s)! Thank-you everybody XD

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by wyce » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:36 am

Can the Su Anko include a closed kan?

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Barticle » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:50 am

You can always use kongs in hands that require pungs (but not vice versa).

The important thing with Suu An Kou is that all four sets must be fully self-drawn, so if you complete the fourth pung by ron then you only get Toi Toi and San An Kou.

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Ruro » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:06 pm

Suu an kou with kan? heh impossible :D if a self drawn kan is not declared it\'s just non existent, like its a pon and +1 tile but if its a pon and +1 tile then you cant form the pair thats needed to complete the suu an kou :P

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by July » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:06 pm

What? You can. If you declare a closed kan, then it\'s treated the same as a closed pung in terms of getting suu an kou.

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Poochy » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:08 am

I think I can provide a general rule of thumb that I think holds true for most yaku combinations:

Say meeting the conditions for yaku A requires you also meet the conditions for yaku B. (For example, A = Honrootoo and B = Toitoihoo, or A = Junchanta and B = Chanta.) (Note: In some cases, such as Honrootoo, B can be either Toitoihoo or Chiitoitsu. Include those cases anyways.)

If the value of A is greater than the value of B, you can claim only A.
If the value of A is less than or equal to the value of B, you can claim both A and B.

(The one exception I can think of off the top of my head is Shousangen, where you can also claim the yaku for each of the two sangenpai kotsu.)

Also, for closed/open melds:
an-kan > min-kan > min-ko
an-kan > an-ko > min-ko
Anything higher up on the hierarchy can count as anything lower on the hierarchy, but not the other way around. (For example, a min-kan can be counted as a min-ko.)

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Spdwagon » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:49 pm

Suu ankou can be made with a closed kan. Image(proof)

Question: what about open kan?

Lets say you are in tenpai for suuankou, but saw a suukantsu in your future hand and started to declare open kans from the other players discards. It somehow stopped around the 3rd kan.
Can you declare a Suu-ankou after you draw your winning tile even though your hand is open, or is it just a sankantsu toitoi?

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Shirluban » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:15 am

It\'s sankantsu toitoi.

A kan is a pon + one tile, so you can count a kan as a pon.
But an open set is not a closed set. You can NOT count an open kan/pon as a closed pon.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Spdwagon » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:45 pm

Figured...
Thanks anyway, Shirluban.

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Barticle » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:58 pm

Of course the basic definition of Suu An Kou is that it´s made with four sets of matching tiles (usually pungs) which are all concealed, or fully self-drawn. Certainly that´s what I had in mind in my previous post.

However I´m sure I read something somewhere... I forget if it was a different version of mahjong or just someone discussing an idea (sorry, this is pretty vague!) ...but the notion was that an open kong always contains three self-drawn tiles* and could therefore be considered as being equivalent to a concealed pung.

Has anyone else come across this idea before?

*Either you have a concealed pung and call kan on a discard or you have an open pung (with two self-drawn tiles) and \"upgrade\" it to a kong with another self-draw.

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Poochy » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:49 pm

Barticle wrote:However I´m sure I read something somewhere... I forget if it was a different version of mahjong or just someone discussing an idea (sorry, this is pretty vague!) ...but the notion was that an open kong always contains three self-drawn tiles* and could therefore be considered as being equivalent to a concealed pung.

Has anyone else come across this idea before?
As far as I\'ve seen, Suuanko is defined as a menzen yaku, i.e. a yaku that only counts if you have no open melds, such as Iipeekoo and Pinfu.

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Barticle » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:00 pm

Okay, cool. Certainly the EMA guide specifies (in bold) that the hand is concealed for Suu An Kou

I wonder if what I actually read was simply \"any kong will always contain at least three self-drawn tiles\" and I made up the rest. ;)

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by iandstanley » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:33 pm

chalwa wrote:iandstanley, you are wrong (not about 4 kans, but the dead wall). Dead wall in riichi always have 14 tiles. So when you are doing Kan dead wall is replenished, but tile is added to the other end
I have checked with the EMA translation of the rules which agree with this approach ... so other rulesets (including Futami Kogeisha and the Tenhou implementation) differ from this approach.

Have cross posted to "Reach Mahjong" Forum for clarification as there are rules claiming both ways.

I would be interested in an official answer re: the japanese rules rather than a quote from a translation (as I have found different interpretations from supposedly similar rules translations)

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Re:Rules & Questioning

Post by Kurai_Hana » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:19 am

Hi, I have a quick question about melded chows.

Suppose in my hand, I had a 1 sou, a 2 sou, and a 3 sou, then someone discarded a 4 sou. Would I be allowed to chi the 4 sou and then discard the 1 sou?

I\'m pretty sure that this isn\'t allowed, but I couldn\'t find it in the European Riichi Mahjong rulebook, so I wanted to ask here.

Thanks for your help!

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