Saki and Riichi?

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Ruro
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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Ruro » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:30 pm

Well yea the patterns are carved i can tell by touch if it\'s a haku or a bamboo and things like that but i\'m no professional. The problem lies in that isn\'t it a \"little\" suspicious that you are touching ALL the tiles you are stacking befor yourself? :D And remembering 2x17 tiles and their exact position is just, well marvelous? :D About the switching to the dead wall, isn\'t it kinda pointless to switch the tile to the deadwall when you can already win with that? At least switch some for kan dora then to get more dora when you declare the kan :D

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Shirluban » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:23 am

Ruro wrote:About the switching to the dead wall, isn\'t it kinda pointless to switch the tile to the deadwall when you can already win with that?
No, no, no. It\'s not pointless.
By doing that, you can :
- score more thanks richan
- win with a open no point hand, thanks rinchan
- be catched and kicked out
- allow more time to your opponents and see one of them win before you can do this trick
At least switch some for kan dora then to get more dora when you declare the kan :D
It\'s an idea.
A bad idea for good play, but a good idea for bad play.
I remeber some guys doing this in Akagi.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Tang » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:57 pm

Yes, the blind master did that in Akagi, but that was to remove dora not to add more. Also the first Yakuza rep player did it. He switched the dora AND kan dora to get 8 doras when he declared kan.

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Eol » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:54 pm

July wrote:Actually, I have a bit of fun trying to explain the ridiculous stuff in Saki with cheating.
Yes, and there is a proof . In episode 19, last hand of national qualification, there was a red 5 dots in a Koromo\'s hand. Koromo discarded 1 dots and started a Saki\'s kan exhibiton. And at the end you can see a Saki\'s wining tile, yes it was a red 5 dots.
So, when all people has staring at all this kans, Saki had to switch a red five from Koromo\'s hand, an after this,won on rin-shan wit this red 5 dots.

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Shirluban » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:53 pm

Are you sure they didn\'t play with two red-dot ?
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Tang » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:03 pm

Eol wrote:
July wrote:Actually, I have a bit of fun trying to explain the ridiculous stuff in Saki with cheating.
Yes, and there is a proof . In episode 19, last hand of national qualification, there was a red 5 dots in a Koromo\'s hand. Koromo discarded 1 dots and started a Saki\'s kan exhibiton. And at the end you can see a Saki\'s wining tile, yes it was a red 5 dots.
So, when all people has staring at all this kans, Saki had to switch a red five from Koromo\'s hand, an after this,won on rin-shan wit this red 5 dots.
The rule set they play with includes 2 red fives dude, it was explained.

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by July » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:53 am

Actually, I\'ve seen some people point out screenshots where they screwed up the animation and Saki has fifteen tiles.

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Eol » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:37 am

Tang wrote: The rule set they play with includes 2 red fives dude, it was explained.
You\'re right, there are 4 red dora, i missed it. My apology.

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Tang » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:09 pm

July wrote:Actually, I\'ve seen some people point out screenshots where they screwed up the animation and Saki has fifteen tiles.
Really? Do you still have them and would it be too much trouble to link?

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Monadology » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:42 pm

Tang wrote:
July wrote:Actually, I\'ve seen some people point out screenshots where they screwed up the animation and Saki has fifteen tiles.
Really? Do you still have them and would it be too much trouble to link?
http://www.osamuko.com/2009/04/08/errors-in-saki/

Two errors there.

The fifteen tile screenshot is here:
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/04/09/saki-cheating/

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by suihi » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:50 am

Image

Mwahaha. Totally unexpected... but just like Saki. The other players seemed to be all tenpai, so I was going to start bailing, but with this I was able to defend my turn as East.

Too bad I didn\'t end up winning, things went downhill from there.

I was very satisfied with how Saki turned out, and I wish there was a 2nd season, but it doesn\'t look like we\'ll be getting that.

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by villadelfia » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:04 am

I have to admit, my interest in riichi mahjong has spiked since watching this anime.

I already knew a few things and now I\'m learning riichi mahjong proper.

There are 2 things I don\'t understand though:
1. Is there any particular reason for setting tiles sideways on your hand?
2. The tally they show after a complete game (the thing where saki manages to get +/-0 4 times in a row), how do you calculate this?

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Poochy » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:36 am

villadelfia wrote:There are 2 things I don\'t understand though:
1. Is there any particular reason for setting tiles sideways on your hand?
2. The tally they show after a complete game (the thing where saki manages to get +/-0 4 times in a row), how do you calculate this?
1. If you mean the tile set on top of the rest of the hand, sideways, that\'s just a common way for televised/filmed Mahjong competitions to show which tile was newly drawn.

If you mean the tile set sideways in a chi/pon/min-kan (note: min-kan is an "open kan", where one tile was called from another player\'s discard), it\'s to mark which tile was called (for a chi) or which player the called tile came from (for a pon/min-kan). This is important because you can\'t win by ron if you\'ve already discarded one of the tiles you\'re waiting for (furiten).

So, for example, say player 1 discarded a 8-bam and player 2, on player 1\'s right, calls it for a chi. Player 2 would place his tiles 8-bam 7-bam 9-bam, with the 8-bam sideways, to show that it was the tile that player 2 discarded, and thus player 2 would be furiten if he/she were to have a wait that includes 8-bam.

For a chi, the called tile is placed on the left and sideways. For a pon, the left tile is sideways if the pon was called from the player to the left, the middle tile is sideways if it was called from across the table, and the right tile is sideways if it was called from the player to the right. A min-kan is usually done with the 4th tile stacked on top of the sideways tile, although some put it vertical in the middle if it was a dai-min-kan (if the player had an an-kotsu (concealed triple) and called the 4th to make a min-kan), to differentiate it from a ka-kan (when the player called a pon to form a min-kotsu, then drew the 4th tile and added it to make a min-kan).

2. The usual calculation is as follows:
Start with the scores at the end of the last hand.
Add/subtract the rank bonus (uma) from each player\'s score depending on their final rank.
Round everybody\'s score to the nearest 1,000. Round up 500 and up, round down 400 and lower.
Subtract the "return" score from everybody\'s score. (Oka)
Divide everybody\'s score by 1,000.
Add up the scores for the 2nd through 4th place players, which should yield a negative number. Negate this to get the first place player\'s score.
(There are a couple different orders you can do these steps in, but I find this is the least prone to human arithmetic error. You should get the same result no matter what, though.)

For example, let\'s say players A, B, C, and D finished with 21,900, 30,200, 31,400, and 17,500 points.
25,000 points each to start, 30,000 point return, uma is +5,000 for first place and -5,000 from last place.
Scores after last hand:
A: 21,900
B: 30,200
C: 31,400
D: 17,500
Add/subtract uma:
A: 21,900
B: 30,200
C: 31,400 + 5,000 = 36,400
D: 17,500 - 5,000 = 12,500
Round to nearest 1,000:
A: 22,000
B: 30,000
C: 36,000
D: 13,000
Subtract return score:
A: 22,000 - 30,000 = -8,000
B: 30,000 - 30,000 = 0
C: 36,000 - 30,000 = 6,000
D: 13,000 - 30,000 = -17,000
Divide by 1,000:
A: -8
B: 0
C: 6
D: -17
C is in first place, so we add up the other three players\' scores to get -25. Thus, C gets a final score of +25.
Final scores:
A: -8
B: ±0
C: +25
D: -17

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by villadelfia » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:36 am

Thank you very much, I just meant the representation one. But thank you for the second answer.

However, according to the EMA riichi rulebook, I think it should be:
Scores after last hand:
A: 21,900
B: 30,200
C: 31,400
D: 17,500
Add/subtract uma:
A: 21,900 - 3,000 = 18,900
B: 30,200 + 3,000 = 33,200
C: 31,400 + 9,000 = 40,400
D: 17,500 - 9,000 = 8,500
Round to nearest 1,000:
A: 19,000
B: 33,000
C: 40,000
D: 9,000
Subtract return score:
A: 19,000 - 30,000 = -11,000
B: 33,000 - 30,000 = 3,000
C: 40,000 - 30,000 = 10,000
D: 9,000 - 30,000 = -21,000
Divide by 1,000:
A: -11
B: 3
C: 10
D: -21
C is in first place, so we add up the other three players\' scores to get -22. Thus, C gets a final score of +22.
Final scores:
A: -11
B: +3
C: +22
D: -21
Did I apply that correctly?

And lastly, I can\'t find any definition of what the start/return are supposed to be in the ema riichi rulebook. Do most people use 25000/30000?

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Re:Saki and Riichi?

Post by Poochy » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:31 pm

villadelfia wrote:Did I apply that correctly?

And lastly, I can\'t find any definition of what the start/return are supposed to be in the ema riichi rulebook. Do most people use 25000/30000?
Close, you added up the other three players\' scores incorrectly in the last step. (-11) + 3 + (-21) = -29. So C\'s final score is +29. Other than that, yes, I believe you have it correct for EMA\'s uma.

Note that the uma amounts are a house rule and vary a lot; league rules and computer games will usually specify their uma amounts in the rules, and it\'s usually agreed upon beforehand in casual play. No uma specification is usually understood as 0/0/0/0 (uma nashi).

The oka (start/return) is also a highly variable house rule. In general, the return is usually either the same as the start value (oka nashi), or 30,000; the only other common exception I\'ve seen is 20,000/25,000. Common start values are 20,000, 25,000 and 30,000.

I can\'t find anything in the EMA rulebook on the oka; usually this means you can assume oka nashi. I can\'t find anything about the start value either, though. In informal play, this usually seems to mean "divide up however many point counters are available so that everybody starts with the same score, and oka nashi," although that\'s probably less likely to be the case in leagues. I\'m frankly not sure, since I have no firsthand experience in actually playing EMA rules.

I\'m not sure what are the most common uma/oka rules, so here\'s a bunch of examples:
The Mahjong Club in Saki: Uma nashi, 25,000 start, 30,000 return.
Mahjong Fight Club: Uma is +5,000 for 1st place, -5,000 for 4th place; 20,000 start for tonpuusen (East round only) or 25,000 start for hanchan (East and South rounds), oka nashi.
Mahjong Fight Club, Sanma (3-player): Uma is +3,000/0/-3,000; 25,000 start, oka nashi.
JPML: Uma depends on number of players with scores greater than 30,000, start 30,000, oka nashi.
Jan Ryu Mon, tonpuusen: Uma is +10K/+5K/-5K/-10K, 20,000 start, 25,000 return
Jan Ryu Mon, hanchan: Uma is +10K/+5K/-5K/-10K, 25,000 start, 30,000 return
Tenhou: Uma is +20K/+10K/-10K/-20K, 25,000 start, 30,000 return
Tenhou, Sanma: Uma is +20K/0/-20K, 35,000 start, 40,000 return
Toupaiou: Uma nashi, 25,000 start, 30,000 return.

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