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Hi everyone,

I\'ve been playing Cantonese mahjong for a long time, and over the past few years picked up Japanese mahjong through trial and error in video games. I wanted a book that I could carry around, that would be able to actually define the rules, because I was unclear on a lot of the finer points.

I eventually settled on a book called \"Hiden Toudai Shiki Maajan Kyoushitsu\". As far as I\'m concerned, Toudai rules are the most common, and Ide Yousuke is a famous pro player in Japan, so I thought this would be a good book to get.

It is a good book. However, some of the rules in the book seem to differ from what I see everywhere. Could anyone clear up the discrepancies for me?

EDIT: By the way, when I say \"official\", I mean the rules that are common to pro matches.

- Scoring. According to the book:
5 han = Mangan
6-7 han = Haneman
8-10 han = Baiman
11+ han = Sanbaiman
Special Hands = Yakuman

These are, of course, excluding the base \"2 han\". How come there is no mention of Kazoe-yakuman for 13+ han? Is it not \"official\"?

- Ippatsu, ura-dora, and kan-dora are all listed under the \"unofficial local rules\" section. However, in all the pro matches I\'ve seen, and in every video game I\'ve seen, these three yaku have been included. Hmm?

- Nagashi-mangan is also listed under the \"unofficial local rules\" section. How common is it for it to be awarded points?

- Draws. Suu fuu renda (four of the same wind discarded in the first go-around), kyuushuu kyuuhai (nine or more terminals in the starting hand), yonin riichi (all players call riichi), and sannin agari (3 players ron off the same tile) are all listed under \"unofficial local rules\". What is the official status of these rules?

- No mention of red dora tiles. Although I guess each tournament has its own rules, are they used a lot in pro matches?

- How about daburon?


Finally, some other questions:
- When you make a kan from someone else\'s discard, then win by rinshan kaihou, it\'s called a \"rinshan tsumo\". However, does the person who discarded the tile pay the entire sum, or is the payment done as if it was a tsumo?

- If anyone\'s seen the latest episode of Saki (episode 16), when Saki made a kan, one tile from the end of the drawable wall moved to the dead wall. Everyone then made a fuss about how it would Koromo\'s haitei raoyue would be affected. However, I\'ve never seen this before; are you supposed to do move a tile after a kan, or is that just a special rule?

- When someone discards a tile and another player has the other three, he can call a kan. However, if I also want that tile (ron), would that count as chan-kan? Or, since ron takes precedence over kan, would there be no extra yaku added?

- When there are four kan on the table for the same person, the game keeps going unless a fifth kan is made. When there are four kan on the table by two or more people, is it a draw immediately when the fourth kan is made, or the fifth kan? Also, suu kan nagare (4 kans) is listed under \"unofficial local rules\". If it\'s really unofficial, then what happens in the official rules when 4 kans are made?



Sorry, this post ended up being way longer than I expected, but thanks to anyone for clearing these rules up.

To my understanding, as a general rule of thumb, Toudai-shiki\'s \"official\" rules are merely those that HAVE to be used no matter the house rules. While kazoe-yakuman, ippatsu, ura-dora, kan-dora, nagashi-mangan, etc. are the norm, Toudai-shiki allows playing without them, hence the reason they\'re listed as optional rules.

From what I\'ve seen, suu fuu renda and kyuushuu kyuuhai tend to be the norm. Meanwhile, yonin riichi and sannin agari tend to be the norm only in real-life games (i.e. those played with actual Mahjong tiles) and are less common in computer/video game versions, though those that allow custom rules usually have an option for them.

Daburon I believe is the norm in Reach, but is rare in non-Japanese variants. To my understanding, any 1000-point sticks from Reach go to whoever would\'ve won if daburon was disallowed (i.e. the player whose next turn would\'ve come sooner, assuming no chi or pon)

- When you make a kan from someone else\'s discard, then win by rinshan kaihou, it\'s called a \"rinshan tsumo\". However, does the person who discarded the tile pay the entire sum, or is the payment done as if it was a tsumo?

I believe this is an optional house rule.

- If anyone\'s seen the latest episode of Saki (episode 16), when Saki made a kan, one tile from the end of the drawable wall moved to the dead wall. Everyone then made a fuss about how it would Koromo\'s haitei raoyue would be affected. However, I\'ve never seen this before; are you supposed to do move a tile after a kan, or is that just a special rule?

After a kan, the tile that was originally going to be the haitei tile is now considered part of the dead wall, and the one before it becomes the haitei tile. Actually moving the tile over to the dead wall to note this is optional, though at the very least I usually see people move the end pair of tiles over to the dead wall after the 2nd kan.

- When someone discards a tile and another player has the other three, he can call a kan. However, if I also want that tile (ron), would that count as chan-kan? Or, since ron takes precedence over kan, would there be no extra yaku added?

I\'m not totally sure on this one, but I believe chan-kan only counts if the player already declared a pon on the tile, drew the 4th, and was about to add the 4th tile to form a kan.

The last one I\'m not sure about.

Robbing the kan can\'t be done if the kan is never made, on the same line of reasoning that a chi never counts as being made of someone else says pon.