3-handed Mahjong

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Pekepan
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3-handed Mahjong

Post by Pekepan » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:36 am

I played 3-handed riichi mahjong with some of my friends today according to the rules on hirohurl\'s website. After reviewing the ones there, the ones on Tom Sloper\'s website, and the ones at tenhou.net, I have a few questions that I wanted to ask.

Why do almost all versions never allow chows?

Why are only two suits used in most variations as opposed to to having all three suits but allowing less draws before the game ends?

The scoring seems to be different for tsumo and ron (on tenhou and hirohurl\'s website); tsumo receives only 3/4 the points that a ron does. Can that be corrected or is there a reason for it?

Thanks!

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Tom Sloper
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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Tom Sloper » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:11 pm

Pekepan wrote:
>Why do almost all versions never allow chows?
>Why are only two suits used

Why do you need a reason why?
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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Pekepan » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:24 pm

My question is from the standpoint of game mechanics rather than me not liking the rule. What about not allowing chows and using two suits makes these specific rules more suited for 3-player mahjong?

What kind of difference would there be if you used all three suits as opposed to two if the same number of draws/tsumo were allowed?

I ask \"why\" because the reasons for these rules would affect whether I would want to adopt them for my own playing.

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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by essnov » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:52 pm

I\'m going to try to answer some of your questions, but keep in mind I\'m by no means a 3p expert or whatever.

Penalty for tsumo: In 3p, I think tsumo is even more common than it is in 4p (haven\'t seen any numbers about this, though) and without this rule, folding loses some of its attractiveness and the game becomes even more about luck than it already is. In my opinion this rule is necessary if you want to keep things fun and challenging.

Disallowing called sequences: This rule is also, I think, in the interest of keeping things balanced. In 4p, you end up directly seeing (your hand + your draws) about 22% of all tiles. In 3p, you end up directly seeing about a third of all tiles. This difference, added to the fact that the range of tiles is smaller, makes hands, in general, already much easier to produce. Adding called sequences makes certain hands too easy to produce and the game much simpler.

Keeping \"pon,\" in my opinion, is OK, because making concealed triplets is still fairly difficult in 3p, and you only get 2 discard piles to call from (or 36/94 = 38% of all tiles) versus 3 piles in 4p (or 54/136 = 39% of all tiles) so the ratios are about the same.

If you want to look at the ratios where you allow calling sequences...:
3p: 1 pile or 18/94 = 19%
4p: 1 pile or 18/136 = 13%

\"Chow\" becomes much stronger in 3p than it is in 4p-- and hands are already much easier to make, so, allowing them would make the game too simple.
What kind of difference would there be if you used all three suits as opposed to two if the same number of draws/tsumo were allowed?
So you\'re suggesting using all 136 tiles, but once 54 tiles have been drawn (3 players times 18 turns = 54 tiles), the game is over?

This makes the dead wall too large, and hands would be too difficult to produce. Exhaustive draws would be very common.

Basically, you are suggesting a dead wall size of about 42 or 43, or about 32% of all tiles. To compensate, you could allow calling sequences, but I don\'t think these rules would make for a very fun game.

hope this helps :3

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Tom Sloper
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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Tom Sloper » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:52 pm

Pekepan wrote:I ask "why" because the reasons for these rules would affect whether I would want to adopt them for my own playing.
Sounds like you don\'t need to know the thought processes behind whoever came up with those 3P rules, so much as whether or not the rules are fun or accomplish some desired result, like fairness or balance.
Nobody can tell you "why" a rule was made unless he was present at the time the rule was made.
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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Tom Sloper » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:58 pm

essnov wrote:Penalty for tsumo: In 3p, I think tsumo is even more common than it is in 4p (haven\'t seen any numbers about this, though) and without this rule, folding loses some of its attractiveness and the game becomes even more about luck than it already is.
What is "folding"? Haven\'t heard the term used before in relation to mahjong.
Also, I hadn\'t heard of a penalty for winning by self-pick before. Does that mean if you pick a tile that makes your hand mahjong you have to discard it? Is that what folding is?
A bizarre rule, if you ask me.
And if that\'s the case, and you do self-pick, and say "tsumo," what\'s the penalty? Same as chombo?
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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Monadology » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:10 pm

I\'m pretty sure the penalty is made clear in the original post (which is to say that if you look at Essnoy\'s response, which proceeds in a question-by-question manner, it becomes clear that the part in which he talks about the \'penalty\' is referring to Pekepan\'s question about Tsumo scoring, seeing as there is no other place in which he addresses the topic and Pekepan had no other questions about Tsumo wins):
The scoring seems to be different for tsumo and ron (on tenhou and hirohurl\'s website); tsumo receives only 3/4 the points that a ron does. Can that be corrected or is there a reason for it?
The penalty is that a Tsumo is worth less than a ron. Relative to in a 4p game, Tsumo wins are \'penalized\' in terms of scoring. Or, in a 3p game, Tsumo wins are \'penalized\' relative to Rons.

\"Folding\", as I have heard it used in relation to Mahjong, is simply giving up a hand and playing as defensively as possible. You prioritize discarding safe tiles over your hand, and willingly take it apart when necessary to do so.

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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Tom Sloper » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:19 pm

Thanks, Monadology.
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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Pekepan » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:20 am

@Tom: I suppose the question I meant to ask (and thank you essnov for deducing what I meant :)) is how do these rules fit into 3p playing. Since these rules are common among 3p variations, I was wondering why they are common. Surely there is a logical reason why they are used that is not obvious to my untrained eye, and I was merely asking what that logical reasoning is, hence \"why.\"

Also, about your question about why I need to ask why: can\'t I just ask why because I want to know? No one really needs to take their time out to answer if they don\'t want to. I think comments like that are unnecessary and actually take away from the discussion I want to start. Your first answer to my question was more of a criticism of my post than an answer, essentially asking why I\'m asking something that no one needs to know. So please if you don\'t have anything to contribute, don\'t say anything at all.

@essnov: Thank you for your insights on the various rules that you posted. I think I have a better understanding now of why the 3p rules are the way they are. Thanks!

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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Tom Sloper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:20 am

Pekepan wrote:1. @Tom: I suppose the question I meant to ask (and thank you essnov for deducing what I meant :)) is how do these rules fit into 3p playing. Since these rules are common among 3p variations, I was wondering why they are common. Surely there is a logical reason why they are used that is not obvious to my untrained eye, and I was merely asking what that logical reasoning is, hence "why."

2. Also, about your question about why I need to ask why: can\'t I just ask why because I want to know?
1. That makes a lot of sense.
2. But this assumes it\'s possible to even know! As I wrote before, only someone who\'d been present at the decision to set a rule can really know why the rule exists.

There might be some rules whose reason for existence can be deduced, based on imagining how the game would go if the rule didn\'t exist and seeing how the fun is reduced or an unfairness is created.

But not all rules are so easily justified or explained. Some of them could have simply propagated because somebody tried it that way and it was fun and somebody shared it with someone else.

Lastly, it\'s not true that all or even most 3P variants use 2 suits and the other commonalities you\'ve observed. There are Chinese variants that use just one suit instead of two, and there are numerous other variants whose 3P rules use all tiles without omitting any, using other rules to try to balance the lack of the 4th player.

I\'m sorry you were offended by my reaction to your question.
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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Pekepan » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:06 am

Thanks for your reply, Tom, and sorry; I guess I sort of overreacted to your comment. Now that you put it that way, I can see why you said it, however.
Tom Sloper wrote:...there are numerous other variants whose 3P rules use all tiles without omitting any, using other rules to try to balance the lack of the 4th player.
What are some of rules that are used to balance play without a 4th player while still using all the tiles? The only one I could think of was to lengthen the dead wall, but as essnov pointed out that would result in a lot of exhaustive draws.

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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by hirohurl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:14 am

Pekepan wrote: Why do almost all versions never allow chows?

Why are only two suits used in most variations as opposed to to having all three suits but allowing less draws before the game ends?

The scoring seems to be different for tsumo and ron (on tenhou and hirohurl\'s website); tsumo receives only 3/4 the points that a ron does. Can that be corrected or is there a reason for it?
Hi Pekepan,

No chows because in the three player version it is easier to complete hands.

3 suits are used, but the character suit is "eviscerated" by removing the 2-8 tiles.

The best way to answer the second "why" is to suggest that you play 3-players with 4-player rules and then 3-player with the 3-player rules on my website.

Removing tiles simply makes for a more dynamic 3-player game. To keep the chow rule in those circumstances would make it tooo easy to go out - try it and see!

Scoring is different because of the "missing" fourth player. It tends therefore to make "Ron" finishes worth more than "Tsumo" finishes, and that in turn tends to make some players a bit cautious, which again adds to the interest of the game, I think, because it sets up a struggle between GREED and FEAR!!!

Hope that helps.

DH

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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Poochy » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:09 am

Pekepan wrote:The scoring seems to be different for tsumo and ron (on tenhou and hirohurl\'s website); tsumo receives only 3/4 the points that a ron does. Can that be corrected or is there a reason for it?
Under Mahjong Fight Club rules, tsumo receives full value; the other two players pay half the value each regardless of who the dealer is. (For example, a non-dealer tsumo mangan would mean the others pay 4,000 each, and a dealer tsumo mangan would mean the others pay 6,000 each.)

Personally, I prefer this, because tsumo on big hands seems to occur much more frequently in 3P, and this way the dealer doesn\'t get screwed over just because it was his oyaba when somebody else pulled off a tsumo.

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Re:3-handed Mahjong

Post by Tom Sloper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:08 pm

Pekepan wrote:What are some of rules that are used to balance play without a 4th player while still using all the tiles?
http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/mjfaq13.htm
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