Open Tanyao

[Barticle]

The rest of you idiots discussing sheep and mahjong sets: IS THIS REALLY THE TOPIC FOR THAT

The debate in this thread has got a little heated - which is fine, it shows we´re all passionate about MJ - but I think it´s good to lighten the mood too.

It´s rare for a thread on a chat forum, or a real-life conversation for that matter, not to deviate and meander at least a little. I´d like to assume that our moderator is comfortable with this and that we can maintain our relaxed and friendly atmosphere without too many rules.

Sometimes what I\'ll do is, before clicking Submit, I hit Ctrl-A and Ctrl-C, then take that carefully composed text and paste it into Word or something, in case something happens when clicking Submit.

I learnt from bitter experience with early webmail software and dodgy net connections to always do the same. (I prefer Ctrl+Home, Ctrl+Shift+PageDown then Ctrl+Insert to copy!)

[gemma]

@silentobserver

Can you tell me which web browser this occurred on? I\'m very sorry that you lost your post. The software will log people out after a certain amount of time. This is partly to protect the integrity of the website. I think I can lengthen this time if it\'s a problem. It may also be a cookie issue?

@all

I have a macbook so some of the stuff that other people see (for example, the logo not being anti-aliased) is fixed automatically by my pretentious mac! Anyway, if anyone is having issues with lost posts, please email me. I\'ll see what I can do. I\'m not on the road after this week and will be able to use my desktop with Windows.

I certainly don\'t make out that I can program websites... In fact I do a pretty poor job but Jenn and I do our best together. Sorry it doesn\'t always meet standards but now I don\'t have a full-time job, perhaps I can get round to making some improvements. Any help is always welcome. ;)

As for moderating, I keep my eye on things but I\'m not a fan of censorship. People diverge and it\'s nice sometimes. Just bring the topic back to what you want it to be.

I\'ll admit some things happen on these boards that I don\'t agree with. A lot of things are said that I don\'t like. But these are my personal opinions that shouldn\'t be inflicted on others, and I think the community generally polices itself very well.

That said, language, please. This is not 2chan (again I\'m not one to talk with my usual level of speech but the written word can be far more powerful than the spoken and we may have younger minds reading.) Third reich references will of course see a thread locked - When any internet argument reaches its inevitable conclusion, I think all the useful things there are to say have been said.

Anyway, feel free to email me with suggestions, complaints, or just insults. I\'m doing my best. I fail a lot of the time. But trust me, the love for mahjong and its community is there!

I think I\'ve diverged from the original intent of the thread and taken it to my ideas on moderation! Sorry! Back to open tanyao...

[alban lusitanae]

Hi to all

After reading through the 5 pages of the topic and seeing what the discussion turned on, and having drank a bit of Malibu on the rocks, I have one thing to say to all people, including the more cooled ones:

calm down

this is a wonderful forum, made by people who happen to have a brain, which means they have ideas, which means they have opinions and which means they will defend them. Badly sometimes, better others. But still there is something everyone has to have in a place which was done and build by some very kind people spending a lot of personal time from one\'s limited breathing time on Earth:

and that is respect.

Insults won\'t make you win arguments, and neither will making fun of people who insult others. If anything, if you feel that someone is not worth a reply, then ignore the person. Debating matters with an insulter, will make you like the insulter. Just ignore any and move forward on the topic. I hope I\'m making sense.

On the topic:

Considering myself a beginner, I have to say that my major defense on MJ has been, if needed, to try (should my hand allow it) a triplet of yaku worth honors, and just that, not opening anything else (or the counting tile pros would read my game). This would break my riichi but at least I had a chance of Ron somehow.

this is my reply on the using the Tanyao open too many times.

Having said that, I believe a standard rule set might be a great influencer to get more people on Mahjong in Europe but (there is always a but, Tom...) you have to prove it really works Tina. Because I personally have no problem playing variants.

So if you advocate that closed tanyao would get more people into the game itself, then I support you and your team and require a DMAIC (or at least a basic metric) that sustains the fact that closing tanyao actually got more people playing.

If you can\'t present such a metric, and sustain that you are closing tanyao simply on the fact that annoys pro players or normal ones, I disagree, since pros will not only adapt to mixed tournament styles, they will also themselves force beginners to work their hands better. It doesn\'t really matter that a beginner wins 4 or 5 games with 1000 to 2000 points, because a pro will get a 15000 point game out of the beginner on the 6th, due to the beginner\'s lack of strategic thought.

I\'m all for getting more people in the game, because it will get more countries involved, more fun to have, more people to meet internationally and get the game supplies to be build in the gaming countries, not importing them, which would reduce the cost in 50% at least.

So Tina, given that you can prove more players come to Mahjong from close tanyao and securing a standard, you have my support, until we have a major flow of players to sustain a competitive and fun Mahjong tourmanent / parlor number across Europe. Then you must open it again.

My 2 cents. Regards to everyone.

[WorTeX]

If they\'d change rules that open tanyao would be allowed, they should remove red fives at the same time to balance a bit.

I myself get annoyed by closed tanyao when it\'s certain that people are going for big hands -while I\'m getting nowhere- and you can\'t shut them off by making a fast play with open tanyao, you can only fold and hope that your safes last until the end.

While closed hand is always the best way to go(in my opinion), european players seem to tend to open their hands and go for toitoi or honitsu, and I think (in my opinion) that it\'s because most of them happen to play MCR rules also which don\'t reward the closed hand as much as riichi does.

One way to see what happens when \"tanyao is opened in europe\" is to arrange tournament with exception of open tanyao in rules, and record statistics how many hands have been won off it and so on.

I don\'t pretty much care what the rules are, as long as I can enjoy the game, be it open tanyao or not.

[alban lusitanae]

While closed hand is always the best way to go(in my opinion), european players seem to tend to open their hands and go for toitoi or honitsu, and I think (in my opinion) that it\'s because most of them happen to play MCR rules also which don\'t reward the closed hand as much as riichi does.

Are you sure? You mean MCR in tournaments or against a CPU?

One way to see what happens when \"tanyao is opened in europe\" is to arrange tournament with exception of open tanyao in rules, and record statistics how many hands have been won off it and so on.

This will depend on the play style. I am much more interested in knowing which option brings more players into the game. If there is an easy hand for beginners, so be it. Sooner or later, the beginner will understand he can\'t win tournaments with just Tanyao.

I don\'t pretty much care what the rules are, as long as I can enjoy the game, be it open tanyao or not.

Basically...

[WorTeX]

MCR rules have been around more than riichi rules in europe, and there are more MCR tournaments than there are riichi ones. I don\'t have time to cross-reference mcr and riichi rankings list in order to see how many people play the both but hopefully you get the point.

[GRDavies]

MCR rules have been around more than riichi rules in europe, and there are more MCR tournaments than there are riichi ones. I don\'t have time to cross-reference mcr and riichi rankings list in order to see how many people play the both but hopefully you get the point.

Not really, don\'t know the history of the Danes, but for The Netherlands MCR started in 2004, that\'s when the Dutch Mahjong Organisation has been created (to accomodate the first European Open Championship back in 2005 at Nijmegen).
Back then there was a small community of Riichi players that was (also) playing on Riichi tournaments here in Holland.
But i understand what you mean, it\'s true about the popularity, the last 2~3 years the population of Riichi players have been rising.

[alban lusitanae]

Well, nevertheless, I believe that the whole idea is to get more players in mahjong, not a different play style for the sake of pros vs beginners. So let\'s wait for the metrics of Tina to know if closing it has worked.

[July]

It doesn\'t seem possible to get numbers on how many people would be beginning riichi mahjong with different rules, without actually changing the rules.

Well, we could ask ourselves in a parallel dimension, or wait for someone to come back from the future and say \"Because you used closed tanyao, the world was destroyed! This is a warning from the future!\"

Short of that...

[WorTeX]

Woah, time travel, best idea in this thread so far, I don\'t like parallel dimensions because everyone evil has a goatee.

[alban lusitanae]

It doesn\'t seem possible to get numbers on how many people would be beginning riichi mahjong with different rules, without actually changing the rules.

So be it. Make separate tournaments and check who plays and who gets out. Simple.

\"Because you used closed tanyao, the world was destroyed! This is a warning from the future!\"

Well, technically speaking, if the world got destroyed, then the warning would have to come from a parallel dimension of the parallel dimension set in the future of the first parallel dimension but I got your point :laugh:

Woah, time travel, best idea in this thread so far, I don\'t like parallel dimensions because everyone evil has a goatee.

HEY I have a goatee :angry: :laugh:

Seriously though, I don\'t see where such a frustration for open Tanyao is. You want to know about frustration? I was playing Gamedesign\'s Flash Mahjong the other day, and one of the opponents Ron\'d me with a closed Tanyao when I has... tenpai\'d for a 13 tile wait on a closed Kokushi-Muso.

If you can beat THAT frustration, I pity you...

[GRDavies]

On the topic:

Considering myself a beginner, I have to say that my major defense on MJ has been, if needed, to try (should my hand allow it) a triplet of yaku worth honors, and just that, not opening anything else (or the counting tile pros would read my game). This would break my riichi but at least I had a chance of Ron somehow.

this is my reply on the using the Tanyao open too many times.

Having said that, I believe a standard rule set might be a great influencer to get more people on Mahjong in Europe but (there is always a but, Tom...) you have to prove it really works Tina. Because I personally have no problem playing variants.
So if you advocate that closed tanyao would get more people into the game itself, then I support you and your team and require a DMAIC (or at least a basic metric) that sustains the fact that closing tanyao actually got more people playing.

If you can\'t present such a metric, and sustain that you are closing tanyao simply on the fact that annoys pro players or normal ones, I disagree, since pros will not only adapt to mixed tournament styles, they will also themselves force beginners to work their hands better. It doesn\'t really matter that a beginner wins 4 or 5 games with 1000 to 2000 points, because a pro will get a 15000 point game out of the beginner on the 6th, due to the beginner\'s lack of strategic thought.

I\'m all for getting more people in the game, because it will get more countries involved, more fun to have, more people to meet internationally and get the game supplies to be build in the gaming countries, not importing them, which would reduce the cost in 50% at least.

So Tina, given that you can prove more players come to Mahjong from close tanyao and securing a standard, you have my support, until we have a major flow of players to sustain a competitive and fun Mahjong tourmanent / parlor number across Europe. Then you must open it again.

My 2 cents. Regards to everyone.

How she ever can prove that?

Sorry, my (technical) english isn\'t that up to par and i don\'t know the abriviation "DMAIC (or at least a basic metric)", but i\'m guessing your talking about thesis, anti-thesis and concensus. I\'m no scientist, but i always thought you can drop any thesis and untill there\'s one disproval it stands on it\'s own. So i will give it a shot:

The Dutch and the Danes are (were?) the greatest (in numbers) Riichi communities here in Europe (long before the first European Riichi Championship). Don\'t know much about the Danish history, other then they were playing another variant, don\'t know which, but when they came across Riichi and made it their national ruleset.
For the Dutch which had mainly tournaments in HongKong Mahjong and Dutch tournament rules (which is basicly Chinese Classical with a lot of irregular hands like Bejing Garden, Windsnake and Dragonsnake and the like), both using a 2 Han (= Yaku) minimum. Frans Roquas (may he rest in peace) introduced Riichi to Martin Rep and Sjef Strik and they held annualy a riichi tournament and later 2 per year.
As for the Danish as for the Dutch both used concealed Tanyo indepently from each other, was that a coincedence? Is it maybe a reflection of the European way of thinking (versus the Asian way of thinking)? Both nations had thriving little Riichi communities. Would open tanyo created lesser or more people who would have played Riichi back then? Hard to tell and we\'ll never know because we can\'t turn back time and make an alternate reality.

What\'s hard to deny is the fact that when there were plans to create the first European Riichi tournament it seemed that the Danish ruleset and the Dutch ruleset were 90~95 % similair (don\'t know which were the 10~5 % oddities) and they were formed indepently from each other.
By help of synchronising talks with Jenn Barr and i believe Benjamin Boas the EMA rules have been created. In the preface of the EMA Riichi Rulebook it\'s said:
"Some rules that have rooted in Europe are different in Japan, notably these three cases:
1. All Simples can only be claimed for a concealed hand. 2. When five counters are on
the table, a two yaku minimum is invoked. 3. It is permissible to chow a tile and discard
an identical tile from the hand."

The only differences of the old Dutch ruleset vs EMA rules:
* Red 5\'s are used
* A counter comes on the table after each draw (we used it only when East was tenpai)
* After 5 counters (hardly ever happens) 2 Yaku becomes the minimum requirement.
* point 3 of the preface (which we Dutch hadn\'t played any differently, but now it\'s on black and white).
* The furiten rule was better clarified (i think we played it ok, but maybe it became more clear for some players).
* The uma system (we used to play 5k from each player to the table winner).

So in a way the (old) Dutch ruleset and the (old) Danish ruleset are the EMA rules and that makes it the thesis .

So the table is turned and can you give me an anti-thesis, by proving the Riichi communities in Denmark and the Netherlands would have been greater if open tanyo was used (and therefore the whole European Riichi community?

Good luck.

If you can\'t present such a metric, and sustain that you are closing tanyao simply on the fact that annoys pro players or normal ones, I disagree, since pros will not only adapt to mixed tournament styles, they will also themselves force beginners to work their hands better. It doesn\'t really matter that a beginner wins 4 or 5 games with 1000 to 2000 points, because a pro will get a 15000 point game out of the beginner on the 6th, due to the beginner\'s lack of strategic thought.

You expect prove from us, but where does this 15000 point game come from? Can you give any reference, because how can we tell that this isn\'t a figment of your immagination?

[alban lusitanae]

\"DMAIC (or at least a basic metric)

Define, Measure, Analyse, Improve and Control, the basis of Six Sigma process improvement. I basically used it as an example and demonstration that when you present a complex thesis or defend a complex position, in this case, that a standard would get more people into the game (the \"D\" objective of the proposition, which I support entirely, no need for \"proof\" on that, even though I don\'t dislike variants) and that a closed Tanyao would get players to become better and help the standard (again the \"D\", although tricky to present facts on that), you would need some sort of measurement (\"M\") and then an analysis (\"A\") of the measurements to check if the closed Tanyao variant actually gets more people involved or not. The \"I\" and \"C\" are just follow ups on what the numbers say.

So to summarize, even something as survey among players would help to get closer to the answer, responding to your:

How she ever can prove that?

Now moving forward.

As for the Danish as for the Dutch both used concealed Tanyo indepently from each other, was that a coincedence? Is it maybe a reflection of the European way of thinking (versus the Asian way of thinking)?

No and yes. Mahjong is filled with cultural aspects. In fact, two of the major ways one can see a civilization\'s culture is through the language and the games they play, demonstrating how they express themselves linguistically and symbolically, and how they have fun and spend their free time socially.

That is why Riichi is different from classical, and you will always have variants, so in a move towards a standard version in europe, you already have a choice between chinese and japanese cultures, and in defining the patterns of play, you approach one or the other\'s view. Are the europeans more chinese oriented? Or are they just trying to get the game harder and more interesting that way (a cultural aproach)?

The jury\'s still out on that one.

Would open tanyo created lesser or more people who would have played Riichi back then?

I don\'t think it would have mattered then, IMHO, since the novelty of the game would have pushed the beginning european comunnity to try to learn the most pure, or at least old, of versions, which I believe is the chinese one, and not so much a japanese variant, although the mix of both was innevitable. Now that the community has strived and is more knowledgable, time to get our own culture print into the game, and maybve that is what is motiving the heated debate.

And that is why I love this game so much.

So in a way the (old) Dutch ruleset and the (old) Danish ruleset are the EMA rules and that makes it the thesis.

Fine by me, I\'m not debating against them at all, I would be a total moron if I tried.

What we\'re discussing is the impact of a single rule (or change of) in the number of players and European standard, in two ways: (1) will it get more or less players into the game and (2) will it help the (european) standard become stronger (more interesting and appealing) or weaker (less interesting and appealing)?

So the table is turned and can you give me an anti-thesis, by proving the Riichi communities in Denmark and the Netherlands would have been greater if open tanyo was used (and therefore the whole European Riichi community?

I don\'t think I need to provide an anti-thesis (since I didn\'t debate the first one) and I already replied to that: it wouldn\'t have mattered then, it will (as we can see for this thread) matter now and in the future.

To conclude: I did not question closed Tanyao as a rule per se, I questioned how could anyone be certain of its worth in a given amount of time (from now on, not in the past) without putting up a way to measure the progress and analysing it for further improvement.

You expect prove from us, but where does this 15000 point game come from? Can you give any reference, because how can we tell that this isn\'t a figment of your immagination?

About my replies, these are not a personal or institutional attack, so your words are mislead.

The 15000 points win on a round was merely indicative of a pros strategic superiority in tournaments, not meant as a strict figure.

Hope it helps clarify this is not a fight against EMA...

[Shirluban]

Define, Measure, Analyse, Improve and Control, the basis of Six Sigma process improvement.

Of one standard rule versus multiple variants.

Define: Having one single standard rule for riichi tournaments would more easily bring players to convert/learn riichi.
Measure: Before Chinese Official rule comes to Europe, there were no real structures to federate mahjong in Europe (AFAIK).
Basing on this standard rule, European players build up organizations, European-level organizations, and set up regular tournaments.
Analysis: This could have be made before CO rules, and without CO rules. But it seems europ\'players don\'t want to have to adapt to a close-but-not-same rule to meet other players.
Improve: Methinks Riichi is a better rule than CO.
Control: It\'s only the begging of european-wide-riichi, so I can\'t control yet.

Of the closed tanyao versus open tanyao.

Define: Letting some players over-use open tanyao can screw off game play and bore players. So forbid open tanyao will give a sweeter game and bring more people to riichi.
Measure: Before EMA riichi rule they were x riichi players in Europe. Now, they are y.
(If you count registered players, who go to championships, x = 0 and y can be count from EMA and national federations players list. If you count all players, including the unknown ones who didn\'t contact federations, x and y are unknown and can\'t be evaluate.)
Analysis: Compare x and y versus x and y\', where y\' is the number of players who would be playing riichi in Europe if EMA rule have allowed open tanyao.
Improve & Control: Error: y\' is used without being initialized. The value of y\' can not be evaluate.

even something as survey among players would help to get closer to the answer

Please do.
I don\'t know what exactly you wanna ask to players, but I offer you any help I can, like French translations or statistical analysis.

To conclude: I did not question closed Tanyao as a rule per se, I questioned how could anyone be certain of its worth in a given amount of time (from now on, not in the past) without putting up a way to measure the progress and analysing it for further improvement.

You\'re right, we can\'t be certain.
But what I don\'t get is what kind of measure we can do and how.

[Benjamin]

I think we\'re starting to get overly technical here :)

To attempt to wrap it up, I\'d say that most (but definitely not all) experienced players think that open tanyao adds to the game. I think we all also agree that it gives beginners, which EMA is full of, an easy way to throw off the game. Whether or not that makes it worth banning is more a question of *event organization* than rules or strategy.

(And believe me, I don\'t really like saying this all that much. EMA folks can tell you that from the very beginning, before there was even a Riichi championship, I railed and railed against closed tanyao since the average age of the Japanese player who prefers it is probably over 60.)

Since most of us here are not *organizers* but players, I don\'t think we\'re going to get much deeper into the topic than we have already so maybe we can move on to something else. I suggest the uma; it\'s way too small and the only reason it isn\'t a more normal amount (like +5000, +15000) is because of fears that it would hurt players\' feelings. (Really!).


Oh, one last thing:

MCR rules have been around more than riichi rules in europe

As GrDavies pointed out, this isn\'t quite true. Riichi has been around longer in Holland, Denmark, and in general because MCR didn\'t exist until 1998 when the Chinese government "invented" it. Wortex is right in pointing out that MCR has a longer history of tournament organization in Europe, but this is of course not true if you count Asia.