regarding furiten

[Thisismich]

Hi everyone,
I\'d like to know your feelings towards the furiten rule.
I mean, I keep being told (and read) that the furiten rule has been introduced to ensure fair play and It\'s not fair to discard a tile and then claim that same tile to win in the end.

Well, I don\'t dislike the rule but I\'m not too fond of it either... I\'ll try to express my feelings about it:
I think this rule was introduced to limit a bit the sheer luck component of MJ, which is still there though, but I think it\'s... a bit too much, it\'s like... \"unnatural\" while all of the other rules seems logical.

I mean, that little tile end up giving away a lot more informations than it should (in my opinion) actually penalizing a more creative style of play in which, through probability calculations and some risk taking, you manage to change an otherwise useless hand into a winning one.
What informations should that tile give away? That I\'m not in need of that tile NOW and in the short run, or I don\'t plan to use it NOW, but from now on a lot of things can change and I may end up needing it, especially if I discard it early when my final hand is still in the making.

I definitely agree on the temporary furiten rule, but the furiten itself... seems a bit too much to me :dry:

What do you think about it?

[HotelFSR]

As you get better at the game you will realize how important it is.

It is the cornerstone of defensive play and adds huge amounts of strategy and hand-reading potential to the game. It also rewards planning ahead and makes you think harder about which tiles to keep.

[Shirluban]

You certainly have noticed that throwing someone\'s winning tile make you loose a lot of points, a very big lot of points.
It\'s why defense is important in reach mahjong.

Thanks the furiten rule, you can be sure that tiles which should be safe are safe. Without this guarantee, it would be very hard to defend.
And if the game-play don\'t stimulate you to defend, you would have no interest to worry about what your opponents are doing.
It is the case in some other mahjong rules : you can play a full game looking only your very own hand and ignoring the other players. With these rules, what worth being 4 at the table?

That I\'m not in need of that tile NOW and in the short run, or I don\'t plan to use it NOW, but from now on a lot of things can change and I may end up needing it, especially if I discard it early when my final hand is still in the making.

It\'s a bit harsh to say, but if you discard a tile and next realize you need it, it usually means you failed in reading the hand at the first time.
It is fair that a seasoned player loose many points because a beginner make mistakes? Wouldn\'t it be fairer if the one who make mistakes is penalized and not the other players?


PS: Even if defense is important, in the beginning you should focus on building your hand. Playing safe will come later.
And for the "harsh" part, everyone make mistakes.

[Thisismich]

You certainly have noticed that throwing someone\'s winning tile make you loose a lot of points, a very big lot of points.
It\'s why defense is important in reach mahjong.

I know that and, as I said, I totally understand it. I use defensive play in many games and this is why I totally support the temporary furiten rule.

Thanks the furiten rule, you can be sure that tiles which should be safe are safe. Without this guarantee, it would be very hard to defend.

Pardon me but I don\'t fully agree to that.
Logic dictates that when someone discard a tile there is one less of that tile available, unless you claim it to make a group of course.
Thus, considering that tile for your future output hand, you\'re aware that there are fewer possibilities to make it than, say, using another tile which nobody already discarded. (Let\'s not make the assumption that this is because someone is already using them, for the moment, nor that there could actually be even fewer possibilities because that tile could be in the dead wall).
This reasoning work the same for your opponent too, so he/she is safer to assume there are fewer possibilities you will need that tile rather than a tile noone has discarded before, so, if I were that opponent, I\'ll end up discarding that tile anyway regardless of the furiten rule because previous discards are the only clues I have to guess what my opponents need, unless they made melded groups.

The probabilities you could get away with that hand aren\'t zero though, and if you\'re willing to take the risk instead of changing the hand I don\'t see why I should stop you; there are more probabilities that you would not go out than you would.
The furiten rule also does not prevent you from using that tile, it just artificially create a sort of insurance for your opponent they would not have to pay you lots of points in case you get lucky and it does it by reducing YOUR luck ONLY.
I mean, every rule I can think of applies to everyone and it reduce the luck component evenly for everyone. The furiten rule, while still being in effect for everyone, it\'s relative to YOUR respective discards. If two players could go out with that tile YOU are the only one that\'s prevented to do so because you already discarded that tile in your past turns, still you can go out if you get the tile from the wall.

It\'s not just penalizing mistakes, when you do, the game for you changes, you are suddenly playing with less tiles than your opponents; they take away part of your luck, yours alone and in a specific situation but if you manage to get extremely lucky (i.e. you pick the tile yourself) then the rule kinda go into the nearest corner to cry and let you win anyway.
That trascends the concept of penalizing.

And if the game-play don\'t stimulate you to defend, you would have no interest to worry about what your opponents are doing.

As I said, the probabilities you could need a previously discarded tile are less than the prob you could need another tile, regardless of the furiten rule; it\'s just that the more time passes, the less you are sure your opponent won\'t need that tile (to go out) but then MJ is also about luck. To me, what\'s bold is to DEMAND that the tile is still 100% safe to discard after half or more of the game is passed.

I know that I probably I can\'t express myself clearly in english, it\'s a feeling I get when I play... when you think about furiten in comparison to other rules, even temporary furiten one, it just strikes me for its specificity, heavyness and influence on play.

[zzo38]

I happen to like furiten rule, and temporary furiten. It adds many things to the game to make it better.

[HotelFSR]

Thisismich:

You are missing serveral key things, including the deeper point of furiten.

It enables you to read your opponent\'s hands because it dictates that you need to keep/discard tiles according to a certain logic, which in turn is reflected in the discard pool. Without this it would completely undermine the high-level defensive aspect of the game, which is deeper than purely folding.

[Thisismich]

Thisismich:

You are missing serveral key things, including the deeper point of furiten.

It enables you to read your opponent\'s hands because it dictates that you need to keep/discard tiles according to a certain logic, which in turn is reflected in the discard pool. Without this it would completely undermine the high-level defensive aspect of the game, which is deeper than purely folding.

Thank you for your answers and sorry for the maybe stupid question; i really wanted to know the people thoughts on that rule.
Don\'t get me wrong tho, I am not against it!

Anyway, I hope that I can learn more about it by playing more and more.

Thank you guys for your insights regarding the furiten rule.

[Fat Dragon]

What kind of furiten are you talking about in this discussion? One tile furiten, one set furiten, whole hand furiten?

[Benjamin]

It\'s not a stupid question at all. Glad to see you want to keep learning :)

[HotelFSR]

fat dragon:

all furiten.

i.e. every type of \'missed win\' caused by passing up winning tiles in one form or another as per the standard japanese rules.