Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Barticle » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:11 pm

Shirluban wrote:I have copied your post and stick it under the name "Illustrated guide of waits with names".
Cool idea! Perhaps we can expand it into a general topic where you paste useful posts that explain different topics - like furiten, limits, counting minipoints, etc - each under its own title?
Fat Dragon wrote:After Ryanmentanki the author marked 3 wait types as "name unknown". Could anybody supply these names?
Only two of my English language MJ books give the Japanese wait names and both only have those five simple ones (and both give Tanki as "Tan Chao" which I´m guessing is more Chinese?).

More important than knowing the names is knowing the probabilities. I´ve updated my previous post below to explain these... (if you´d like to copy across again?)


Tanki - pair wait, one tile waiting for another of the same

:east :east :east :south :south :south :west :west :west :north :north :north 2-crak
wait: 2-crak

As there are four copies of each tile in the full set - and you have one of them - you are waiting for only three tiles.

Some of these might be unavailable if already discarded, in a melded set or in the dead wall so three is the theoretical maximum number.

Ryanmen - the serial pair or two-sided wait, waiting to complete either end of a chow

:east :east :east :south :south :south :west :west :west :north :north 4-dot 5-dot
waits: 3-dot 6-dot

Of the five basic waits, this one gives the highest chance of winning - you are waiting for eight tiles in total (four each of the two waits).

A hand must be won on a Ryanmen wait in order to qualify for the Pinfu yaku.

Kanchan - centre wait, waiting on the middle tile of a chow

:east :east :east :south :south :south :west :west :west :north :north 6-bam 8-bam
wait: 7-bam

You are waiting on four tiles.

Penchan - edge wait, a Ryanmen including a 1 or 9 hence only waiting on one side

:east :east :east :south :south :south :west :west :west :north :north 1-dot 2-dot
wait: 3-dot

Again you are waiting on four tiles.

Shanpon - I call it a "double pair wait", a hand with three complete sets and two pairs, one of which must become a pung

:east :east :east :south :south :south :west :west :west 8-crak 8-crak 8-dot 8-dot
waits: 8-crak 8-dot

With this one too you are waiting on four tiles but this time two each of the two different waits.

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Shirluban » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:26 pm

Barticle wrote:
Shirluban wrote:I have copied your post and stick it under the name "Illustrated guide of waits with names".
Cool idea! Perhaps we can expand it into a general topic where you paste useful posts that explain different topics - like furiten, limits, counting minipoints, etc - each under its own title?
Perhaps. Certainly! But not today :P
I´ve updated my previous post below to explain these... (if you´d like to copy across again?)
I\'ve updated ;)
chalwa wrote:It would be nice to add tho this sticed topic 3/4/5/6/7/8/9 sided waits.
It\'s in progress.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules 2022
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by silent observer » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:37 am

\"Nagashi Mangan o Mangan yaku tosuru\"
\"Ippatsu o 1 han yaku tosuru\".
tosuru means \"regard as\", not \"is\". Meaning that \"If it happens, payment is the same as a mangan yaku.\" Ippatsu isn\'t a yaku either, it\'s a bonus.

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Barticle » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:40 pm

silent observer wrote:tosuru means "regard as", not "is". Meaning that "If it happens, payment is the same as a mangan yaku." Ippatsu isn\'t a yaku either, it\'s a bonus.
A bonus yaku maybe? ;)

Okay, clearly I´m not in a position to argue the finer points of Japanese terminology.

I did look up the word tosuru in an online dictionary and it gave seven different meanings including "to make into", also I was working on the assumption that Ippatsu was a yaku.

I´m sure you appreciate that it´s difficult to pick up this sort of thing because of the language barrier that a lot of us face. Even when you have enough Japanese to work (slowly) through video games you stilll find that most of them list both Ippatsu and Nagashi Mangan under sections entitled "yaku introduction" and "yaku summary"...

Incidentally, thinking of linguistic matters, do you have any thoughts on the correct reading (pronounciation, not meaning) of my kanji in the top post? B)

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by silent observer » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:08 pm


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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Barticle » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:11 pm

silent observer wrote:
You appear to be living up to your user-name!
Barticle wrote:
silent observer wrote:nagashi mangan isn\'t a yaku, it\'s a kind of ryuukyoku.
It´s certainly not a "normal" yaku, but I wonder if it might be recognised as a special type of yaku and a special type of win?
I was just bumbling around the MJ pages on Wikipedia Japan and oddly enough "special yaku" is exactly how Nagashi Mangan is described there.

I also found this cool page there with sixty-two (count ´em!) optional yaku! :dry:

http://tinyurl.com/localyaku

And, through Google, a couple of nice pages listing wait types (in Japanese but well illustrated; the first ten are named).

http://www.geocities.jp/manbouk/k_11.html
http://www.geocities.jp/manbouk/k_12.html

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Barticle » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:30 am

I finally figured out my kanji! :woohoo:

The left side of the final character should be the \"gold\" radical - I really need to get a bigger TV so I can actually read smaller/complicated kanji instead of having to guess them based on overall shape!
Image
These two kanji together spell Houjuu which literally means \"shooting a gun\". (I guess it´s a bit like the English term \"letting off a cannon\" which is used to describe versions of the Pao rule where a player is liable if they discard a tile which is claimed to complete the requirement of a big hand.)

Googling, I see it´s in UmaiKeiki´s MJ glossary which confirms that it refers to discarding a tile that gets ronned (for any hand, not just big ones).

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Fat Dragon » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:37 pm

@Barticle

I \"observed\" your post and have to say \"good work\":cheer:

From now on you should be called Mr. Kanji Inspector.

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Gamegrunt » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:58 pm

The character on the right reminds me of my silver generals in my Shogi set.

Gg

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Barticle » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:44 pm

Fat Dragon wrote:I "observed" your post and have to say "good work":cheer:

From now on you should be called Mr. Kanji Inspector.
:lol: I hope the title comes with a free widescreen TV!
Gamegrunt wrote:The character on the right reminds me of my silver generals in my Shogi set.
Yup, the character for gold appears in the left half of the kanji for several metals, including silver.

I think there should be a big one on your gold general pieces too?

BTW I was reading about the biggest of the Shogi variants - Taikyoku Shogi - earlier this week. 402 pieces per player! :blink:

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by silent observer » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:55 pm

You appear to be living up to your user-name!
Yeah, sorry - that was supposed to be a link, but it seems it got lost somewhere. The reading is indeed fuōtō, which you can see here: http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E4%B8%8 ... E%E7%B5%B1

edit: lovely forums. fuhoutou, then, or fuhootoo.

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Barticle » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:46 am

Cool site, thank you, but I´ve since changed my mind about that third kanji!

Overall I think the three would be Fuhoujuu (or possibly Buhoujuu). As if Japanese wasn´t already difficult enough they have multiple readings for most of the kanji... argh!

BTW thinking of names for waits I had a hand like this last night, with only three turns remaining in the kyoku...

:east :east :east :south :south 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 9-dot
wait: 8-dot

It´s a \"not-so-great late eight straight wait\". :silly:

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by silent observer » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:29 pm

no, it\'s read fuhoutou; at least with the kanji you gave me in the initial post.

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Barticle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:19 am

Yeah, the Tou is correct for the original post, although it´s not unknown for MJ terms to use odd kanji readings that aren´t in my dictinary, for example Puu or Fon for wind.

However I misread that kanji (it´s so small on my monitor that the radical is basically a solid blob) and I gave the correction a few posts back.

So it´s Juu (gun) instead of Tou (overall). I really should have found the correct one sooner - the two are listed next to each other in my kanji dictionary! :laugh: Doh!

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Re:Two quick/random questions (kanji and wait types)

Post by Barticle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:03 am

Shirluban wrote:It\'s in progress.
Good work on the illustrated guide. B) You could also mention that the Chuuren 9-men and Kokushi 13-men are both optionally counted as double yakuman.

I´ve added a few more terms to the sticky topic (but will keep discussion in this thread).

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