Furiten question

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MJSmash
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Furiten question

Post by MJSmash » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:38 pm

If I\'m waiting on sanankou/suuankou hand with the following:

5-crak 5-crak 8-crak 8-crak 8-crak 5-bam 5-bam 6-bam 6-bam 6-bam 7-bam 7-bam 7-bam

and someone deals an 8-bam (which would give me an iipeikou win), can I pass it up and still wait on the 5-crak and 5-bam?

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Re:Furiten question

Post by zzo38 » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:58 pm

Yes, but not until your next turn.

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Re:Furiten question

Post by MJSmash » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:35 pm

How about if I\'ve declared reach?

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Re:Furiten question

Post by Shirluban » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:49 pm

If someone throw one of your winning tiles and you let it pass, you will be furiten until the turn end.
The turn end as soon as you draw, or when anyone make a call (chii, pon, kan, concealed kan).

If you throw yourself one of your winning tiles, you\'ll be furiten until you shift your hand to not wait for this tile anymore.

If you have declared riichi and let pass or throw one of your winnings, you\'re furiten for the whole hand. Hope for tsumo and wait for the next deal.
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Re:Furiten question

Post by Senechal » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:28 pm

Shirluban wrote:If someone throw one of your winning tiles and you let it pass, you will be furiten until the turn end.
The turn end as soon as you draw, or when anyone make a call (chii, pon, kan, concealed kan).
False. It takes a self-pick to cancel the temporary furiten.

Code: Select all

      A
    
L ---pon---> R
_ ---pon---> _

     you
Neither pon of R from L cancels it. If you ignored the first winning tile from R played right after you, and play continues as above, there are 8 other discards that you won\'t be able to call on, until it is your turn to play again. While the turn count does keep going up, you are still furiten.
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Re:Furiten question

Post by spin » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:29 am

I thought you stayed furiten until the same person that dropped the potential winning tile drops another tile?

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Re:Furiten question

Post by vanaheimr » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:54 am

I\'ve always played the rule that the player who passes a winning ron tile is in furiten until either his next draw or until someone calls.

I hazily recall some players playing a rule where a limit hand such as the hand of earth can\'t be played after someone\'s call, even if it is still the first \"round\" which makes me think that a call ends the current round.

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Re:Furiten question

Post by MortenA » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:52 am

In the EMA rules temporary furiten is interrupted by a call (or by picking a tile yourself).

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Re:Furiten question

Post by Senechal » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:00 pm

Here\'s the line from Bakatsuki Typhoon (from Masayuki Katayama, (translated by Benjamin Boas, restrictive ari-ari mahjong that you can use universally)
3. A player who has not declared RIICHI may choose not to win on a discarded tile that can complete his hand, but this makes him TEMPORARILY FURITEN until his next draw.
From ma-jan.or.jp ; Furiten point 3 : \"riichi sengen o shiteinai toki ni agari o minogashita baai wa, jibun no *moda* o keika shinakereba ron agari dekinai\"

Resumed as: When you haven\'t declared riichi, if you let a winning tile go by, you cannot win by ron until your turn (moda = draw and discard, your actual turn) has come around again.
While you can say that my translation is partially off, I did not see anywhere that says P/K/C invalidates it (especially since you\'d see the words pon, kan, chi or fu-ro, neither of which are there).


Furiten isn\'t ippatsu
, applying what we think as one rule to another situation doesn\'t always hold. That and to keep my opinion brief, concise, but necessary, the current EMA interpretation of furiten and the illegal kuikae (5 for 5*) is enough to remind one\'s self that the internet world of mahjong is not governed by EMA interpretation, unless the thread starts by \"how does XYZ work in the EMA?\"

The poster didn\'t mention that so it would have to be assumed that\'s he\'s asking about mahjong as it\'s played in the world.

If you let a tile go by...
- if you called riichi, you\'re furiten forever, can only win by tsumo.
- if you didn\'t call riichi, you\'re furiten until your next turn. That involves discarding a tile that you pick or that you draw from inside your hand and throw after picking or calling a tile. That\'s it.
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Re:Furiten question

Post by MortenA » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:40 pm

Senechal wrote:

Furiten isn\'t ippatsu
, applying what we think as one rule to another situation doesn\'t always hold. That and to keep my opinion brief, concise, but necessary, the current EMA interpretation of furiten and the illegal kuikae (5 for 5*) is enough to remind one\'s self that the internet world of mahjong is not governed by EMA interpretation, unless the thread starts by "how does XYZ work in the EMA?"

The poster didn\'t mention that so it would have to be assumed that\'s he\'s asking about mahjong as it\'s played in the world.
Sure, but EMA is part of the world too. I\'m not saying you are wrong just that it is played differently in EMA tournaments.

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Re:Furiten question

Post by Senechal » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:50 pm

Diplomatically speaking, I\'m not saying you\'re wrong either that the EMA plays with a definition other than what seems to be accepted beyond the EMA.

The difference is if I play that hand my way in the EMA, I\'ll hold back*, but if you called ron where I play, you\'d be called out for it, paying chombo. I\'ve pulled two sources already, I don\'t feel like I need to find more to solidify a point that hasn\'t been countered.

Our student here of Furiten 101 asked a furiten question. Unless he asked for an EMA ruling (which I would never pretend to give), wouldn\'t it be appropriate to answer with what works everywhere?

We\'ve got an EMA answer three times, one of which was played \"as a house rule\", one guy who has yet another interpretation of furiten. I don\'t think you can reason through this one by \"democracy\" (mob rule) when the options aren\'t even clear. Me citing more resources won\'t change anything. This would be a question for Jenn or Garthe to answer if closure was required. It seems like it is required, and I can\'t provide it for you.

What is the norm concerning furiten in the mahjong world? Phrased otherwise, out of 10 jansou, how many would allow someone to claim a 5s after an 8s has fallen before the player gets to play again? Let\'s say a pon or two crosses his face without having got the chance to pick a tile himself.



*This star indicates a remark while serious also might be confused with the fact that 55888m55666777s (5m, 5-8s wait) is a hand that I would play furiten normally anyways if and only if the 8s was the first winning tile to drop.
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Re:Furiten question

Post by Nisse » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:13 am

Senechal wrote:
Shirluban wrote:If someone throw one of your winning tiles and you let it pass, you will be furiten until the turn end.
The turn end as soon as you draw, or when anyone make a call (chii, pon, kan, concealed kan).
False. It takes a self-pick to cancel the temporary furiten.

Code: Select all

      A
    
L ---pon---> R
_ ---pon---> _

     you
Neither pon of R from L cancels it. If you ignored the first winning tile from R played right after you, and play continues as above, there are 8 other discards that you won\'t be able to call on, until it is your turn to play again. While the turn count does keep going up, you are still furiten.
This is wrong (in the EMA rules atleast). European rules: "A player who fails to claim a win on a discard that completes a mahjong hand, i
temporarily furiten, even if the passed tile gives him no yaku, and he cannot claim a win
on a discard in the current go-around. If the go-around is interrupted by claims for kong
pung or chow, the player is no longer temporarily furiten. The state of temporary furiten
always ends when the player draws a tile, i.e. no player is ever considered furiten on a
self-drawn tile."

There should be no differance between being in riichi or not when it comes to furiten.

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Re:Furiten ramblings.

Post by Senechal » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:44 am

Nisse: Please read the thread. Apparently, in the EMA, yes, furiten status is cancelled as soon as a call is made (P/K/C). All you did is copy-paste text I\'ve already read (before it was mentioned a first time), acknowledged that the rule is \"played\" this way in the EMA, and already refuted in a global context. The OP asked about furiten, not an EMA ruling, so my answer follows how the rule is played by sites like tenhou.net, leagues like the JPML, and writings from popular figures in the mahjong manga world, namely Mr. Katayama, who has an article dedicated to him on this very site that came up just recently.

If you have new information you\'re welcome to post it, as is anyone else. But EMA or subsidiary information that supports their position in their context will not change or inform more about the current position:

(Aside from permanent furiten after riichi)
EMA = furiten breaks after a call. (rule conditions are like ippatsu)
Japanese mahjong outside of Europe = furiten breaks after picking/calling then throwing a tile (playing one\'s own turn)


And where does the \"being riichi or not doesn\'t matter when it comes to furiten\" comment come from? It almost seems like a comment to disparage my position despite having no clarity in the idea behind the words. I\'m pretty sure you know that if you declare riichi and let any winning tile go by, consciously or otherwise, you cannot claim any other discard later and must self-pick to win.
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Re:Furiten ramblings.

Post by Nisse » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:01 am

Senechal: Too long text, too boring, too tired. :) Don\'t know much about manga but that might be true.

And \"being riichi or not doesn\'t matter when it comes to furiten\" is true. Furiten acts the same way in riichi, if you dont ron on a tile that makes your hand complete your temp. furiten. Same with regular furiten, if you go riichi in furiten (or discard a winning tile) it\'s just like if you\'re not riichi. This is simply because it isn\'t metioned in the rules (except a small segment) so it is obvious what goes (like saying it\'s forbidden to ride a red bike because it doesn\'t say it ISN\'T forbidden).
The riichi part of the comment was not aimed at you though :)
Read the rest of the comments daaah! haha :) Sorry if I upset you

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Re:Furiten ramblings.

Post by Senechal » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:18 am

Upsetting me would require me to placing hope or faith into people and then being let down. This is what is more defined as an annoyance, having to deal with people who when by their own admission post when tired, drunk or stoned and can barely understand half of what they write themselves.

It\'s not like you can know everything about riichi mahjong either, with an account fresh from today.


(Back to the actual topic, I requested some kind of signal from someone with the authority to confirm or deny what\'s been going on in the thread. This Nisse guy isn\'t.)
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