Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by Shirluban » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:15 pm

There are also things that you can't learn from experience, like statistical analysis and other game theory.
It's possible to re-invent the wheel all by ourself, but having a good book or other source is better.
Books are also useful to learn from other peoples' experience, not only your personal one.

Of course, personal experience is very important, but no one should limit to that.
mostek wrote:old japanese men in particular seem have alot to say
Unfortunately, most readers here are too far away to hear them.
It would be more helpful if these "old japanese men" have a lot to write instead.
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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by mostek » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:05 am

Shirluban wrote:There are also things that you can't learn from experience, like statistical analysis and other game theory.
It's possible to re-invent the wheel all by ourself, but having a good book or other source is better.
Books are also useful to learn from other peoples' experience, not only your personal one.

Of course, personal experience is very important, but no one should limit to that.
very true, especially about using books to learn from other peoples experience.
(actually for that purpose, reading manga's about mahjong not named Saki might be an even better option. Hell even Saki has a few good strategic bits useful in real life)

I wasn't saying that you should limit yourself to personal experience at all. you shuoldn't limit yourself to anything ever. That sort of closed minded thinking never got anyone very far.

BUT,

I do believe that once you have the basic mechanics of mahjong down, it's best to just play. You learn alot of the more 'advanced' strateties like not stealing tiles at every opportunity and patiently building bigger hands and defensive strategies like dealing sugi tiles etc. naturally or, in other words, the hard way. Which is just another way to say you REALLY learn it, not just KNOW. And learning the hard way I think usually gives one a 'sixth sense' of sorts, knowing instictively when to win a hand fast or when to build a monster or when to plain bail from the start period. Something you cant expect to 'learn' by reading about in a book. Too many people, not just concerning mahjong but on almost anything there is to be learned, insist on becoming armchair experts, reading everything there is to be written about a subject, before actually going out and trying it for themselves, when in fact they might actually learn more in a single game than all the mathematical statistical theoretical crap they've ever read combined.

huge exaggeration i know, but bear with me just trying to make a point..

Ive read some bits and pieces here myself, and with plenty difficulty. Like its been said a few times already on this thread, most of the more 'advanced' stuff on mahjong is written in archaic medieval Japanese that id be willing to bet most of Japans youth today would have a hard time reading. Japanese as a written language is incredibly difficult.

And of course, there were alot of good points to be learned in those books that ive used here and there when they applied. But for all that hard work, I've come to find that most of that crap goes straight to shit when I'm isshanten from a solid haneman hand for a potential gyakuten, in the face of a reach from the oya and my last tile to throw away is looking rather suspicious.

I'm sure you know as well as I do, if not more, since I'm rather young and probably not as experienced as you are, that mahjong, for all the statistics and mathematical possibilities surrounding it, has a huge element of random luck attached to it. Sometimes, rather, alot of times, winning is simply trusting your 'nagare' and having the balls to jsut go for it. And of course even more importantly, knowing when to not push your luck despite being 'statistically' in the green zone, trusting that uneasy feeling in your gut that tells you to back off.

But then if im honest, I'm much more of a unpredictable luck player, going by gut feeling and my sense of where the 'nagare' is going, rather than a by the books skill player, so maybe I shouldn't be pitching my opinion so much on this topic anyways :twisted:

just my two cents, sorry for throwing the thread off topic so bad.

oh and the thing about the old japanese men.. haha yea, I realize that.. no offense intended, I was just thinking about a funny incident that happened to me just a couple days ago involving a very chatty old japanese man while I was playing the other day.. but yea save that story for some other time.
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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by RichardK8 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:35 am

A lengthy post to say... you are not interested in studying strategy books. You feel it is a burdensome task, requiring too much effort, especially compared to the easier alternative of relying on luck and gut feelings. We heard you, mostek. Now, please, step aside so the ones not afraid to work to acquire a better knowledge of the game can contribute to this thread.

Less noise, more signal, please.

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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by mostek » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:17 am

RichardK8 wrote:A lengthy post to say... you are not interested in studying strategy books. You feel it is a burdensome task, requiring too much effort, especially compared to the easier alternative of relying on luck and gut feelings. We heard you, mostek. Now, please, step aside so the ones not afraid to work to acquire a better knowledge of the game can contribute to this thread.

Less noise, more signal, please.
I type fast. And dont judge me dick.
You obviously didn't get what I was trying to say at all.
If you got enough free time to attempt translating an entire technical book like that, chapter by chapter, using fkin google translate for christ sake, be my guest.
I know I wouldn't try it and I respect and admire you're passion.
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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by burke » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:34 am

mostek wrote:And dont judge me dick.
Like you judged all those looking for more advanced books to be "armchair experts"? Try to be civil, butting into the discussion like you did was rude. This place is big enough to carry all kinds of discussions, if you want to discuss gut feeling versus book knowledge go ahead and start your own thread.

Regarding the translation of Japanese books. Translating them is probably one of the few realistic ways we are going to get any books about Riichi Mahjong in English. I would certainly welcome any efforts made in this direction, perhaps if the translation were good enough it could even be published officially...

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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by mostek » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:38 am

burke wrote:
mostek wrote:And dont judge me dick.
Like you judged all those looking for more advanced books to be "armchair experts"? Try to be civil, butting into the discussion like you did was rude. This place is big enough to carry all kinds of discussions, if you want to discuss gut feeling versus book knowledge go ahead and start your own thread.
That wasn't a judgement on anyone, just my general opinion like I said on almost everything there is to be learned today in this world of wikipedia and youtube experts.

Unlike dicky
RichardK8 wrote: you are not interested in studying strategy books. You feel it is a burdensome task, requiring too much effort, especially compared to the easier alternative of relying on luck and gut feelings.
Which I found a bit rude on my end, but hey whatever. I'm a big boy I can deal.

You're right though, I did stray a bit too far off topic, and I apologize. Maybe I will just start my own thread. Happy translating kids.
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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by cavemaneca » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:15 pm

As far as the translation goes, first off, wouldn't it be best to have the imported text first to work with?

If ANYONE wants a translated book, we'll need that first. PDF from somewhere online would probably be best, but just someone with a scanner, book, and a japanese OCR could do it too.

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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by Shirluban » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:26 pm

Now we all go back to the topic subject, and stop to argue about who was rude.
If not, I may decide to delete some posts.


So Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?
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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by RichardK8 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:25 pm

cavemaneca wrote:As far as the translation goes, first off, wouldn't it be best to have the imported text first to work with?

If ANYONE wants a translated book, we'll need that first. PDF from somewhere online would probably be best, but just someone with a scanner, book, and a japanese OCR could do it too.
There is no need to translate an entire book and infringe copyrights in the process.

We could :
  1. Acquire several Japanese books, ideally directly from the copyright owners, explaining them our objectives
  2. Scan and OCR the books (not with the intention of releasing them all over the web, surely not to hurt Japanese sales, but to increase the popularity and knowledge of Riichi Mahjong in Western countries)
  3. Translate only selected chapters, for meaning, not word for word, and only the parts most beneficial to improve the general level of play here, in English speaking countries.
  4. Publish summaries, maybe on a wiki, of the knowledge extracted from those books.
The aim is not to publish direct translations of Japanese books but to learn from them.

It's amazing no Japanese player ever published English summaries of strategy books. He would become instantaneously famous all over the World. I am sure it would even increase his reputation in Japan. He would be the first international mahjong star in history !

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Re: Any Non-'Beginner' books out there?

Post by cavemaneca » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:03 am

RichardK8 wrote:There is no need to translate an entire book and infringe copyrights in the process.
I meant as far as anyone who owned a legal digital copy that we could use. But yes, I like your ideas on the subject.

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