Greetings and some questions

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Referee
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Greetings and some questions

Post by Referee » Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:54 pm

Hi there. I just registered on this site although I read it occasionally. Since I like Mahjong (I usually play MCR) and I\'m now learning Japanese, I recently developed an interest in Riichi.

Now I got some questions about this, of different kinds.

Is there a definite set of rules for this? I\'ve seen different rules about the net, varying on things like Triple Ron allowed vs Head Bump vs Abortive Draw (classical youtube video of a junryumon [from Ryumonbuuchi?] with 9-pin being triple dora and a reached hand draws one and all three hands were waiting on it, and the poor guy had to pay for three Baiman, one being a dealer one), or the different yaku allowed, or other stuff.

For instance: How would these hands be scored?

5-dot 5-dot 5-dot red-dot 6-dot 6-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot 7-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam ron 7-dot

5-dot 5-dot 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam 3-bam 4-bam red-bam ron 7-dot

I think it\'s obvious what I mean, but if I need to clarify, just tell me.

or they may also differ on the requirements (or validity) of things like Nagashi Mangan, or multiple Yakuman.

Also, I would like to know how do the insurance rules work.

For instance:
1- West has ponned Haku and Hatsu. South discards Chun and later West rons North\'s discard for Daisangen.

2- South discards Chun and is ponned, later West tsumoes for Daisangen.

3- If one of the players involved is East, do the payments change?

4- After ponning South\'s Chun, North discards Ton, which is Ronned for Daisangen Tsuuisou.

5- North\'s Ton is ponned and later West tsumoes for Daisangen Tsuuisou.

6 - North\'s Ton is ponned, East discards Pei and is Ronned for Daisangen Tsuuisou.

I don\'t think I\'m missing an interesting case, but feel free to elaborate.

Next questions I\'m putting on another thread so that this one is not cluttered with answers to many questions.

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Re:Greetings and some questions

Post by Poochy » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:35 am

Referee wrote:Is there a definite set of rules for this? I\'ve seen different rules about the net, varying on things like Triple Ron allowed vs Head Bump vs Abortive Draw
I assume "Head Bump" refers to the rule that says whoever would\'ve had their next turn first (assuming no pon or kan calls), gets priority.

Then, Head Bump is the default for non-Riichi variants. Riichi variants differ by house rules, but the most common rule I\'ve seen is that if 2 people ron on the same tile, they both win, while if 3 players win, it\'s an abortive draw. For a double ron, Head Bump applies to any 1,000-point sticks from Riichi declarations.

Other variations I\'ve heard of are:
A: Head Bump applies in all cases.
B: Triple ron is allowed; Head Bump for Riichi sticks as with double ron.
For instance: How would these hands be scored?

5-dot 5-dot 5-dot red-dot 6-dot 6-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot 7-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam ron 7-dot

5-dot 5-dot 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam 3-bam 4-bam red-bam ron 7-dot
First one:
5-dot 5-dot 5-dot
6-dot 6-dot 6-dot
7-dot 7-dot 7-dot
2-bam 2-bam
red-dot 6-dot 7-dot
Sanankou (2 han) + red dora (1 han) + Tanyao. 4 han, Mangan. If you\'re playing with Sanrenkou ari, an additional 2 han for Sanrenkou, total of 6 han, Haneman.

Second one would depend on whether or not san ren kou is allowed via house rule.
With san ren kou:
5-dot 5-dot 5-dot
6-dot 6-dot 6-dot
7-dot 7-dot 7-dot
2-bam 2-bam
3-bam 4-bam red-bam
Sanrenkou (2 han) + red dora (1 han) + Tanyao, total 4 han, Mangan. Note that you can\'t claim Sanankou here, since completing a kotsu via ron makes it count as a min-kou (open).

Without san ren kou:
5-dot 6-dot 7-dot
5-dot 6-dot 7-dot
5-dot 6-dot 7-dot
2-bam 2-bam
3-bam 4-bam red-bam
Iipeekou (1 han) + red dora (1 han) + tanyao. [Edit: Oops, missed pinfu.]
or they may also differ on the requirements (or validity) of things like Nagashi Mangan, or multiple Yakuman.
This is simply a matter of house rules.
Nagashi Mangan is usually allowed, house rules may disallow it.
Multiple Yakuman also varies by house rules. Some play Yakuman as a hard cap, some allow Yakuman to stack as much as you like, and I\'ve heard of a double Yakuman limit. I\'ve also heard of a house rule (kazoe yakuman nashi) that limit regular hands at Sanbaiman and only automatic-Yakuman hands are worth Yakuman, but that seems to be a very rare rule.
Also, I would like to know how do the insurance rules work.

For instance:
1- West has ponned Haku and Hatsu. South discards Chun and later West rons North\'s discard for Daisangen.
South would be responsible, and would pay half; North pays the other half.
2- South discards Chun and is ponned, later West tsumoes for Daisangen.
South would be responsible, and pay the full amount as if West had won by ron from South\'s discard.
3- If one of the players involved is East, do the payments change?
No, aside from the 1.5x point value if East is the winner.

I\'m not as sure on the Daisangen Tsuuiisou scenarios.

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Re:Greetings and some questions

Post by WorTeX » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:10 am

I think the first hand example could be interpreted as tanyao pinfu ryanpeiko dora1, haneman 12000/18000.

The second one as tanyao pinfu ipeko dora1, 4han 30fu 7700/11600.

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Re:Greetings and some questions

Post by Poochy » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:32 pm

Ah, yes, I missed the ryanpeekou and and pinfu there. Thanks.

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Re:Greetings and some questions

Post by Shirluban » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:28 pm

First hand:
5-dot 5-dot 5-dot red-dot 6-dot 6-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot 7-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam ron 7-dot
With EMA rules:
ryanpeikou 3
pinfuu 1
tanyao 1
aka dora 1
-> Total 6 han, Haneman

If yonjun/iisousuushun (4 identical shuntsu) is allowed:
yonjun 5
pinfuu 1
tanyao 1
aka dora 1
-> Total 8 han, Baiman


Second hand:
5-dot 5-dot 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot 7-dot 2-bam 2-bam 3-bam 4-bam red-bam ron 7-dot
With EMA rules:
iipeikou 1
pinfuu 1
tanyao 1
aka dora 1
-> Total 4 han, 30 fu

If iisousanjun (3 identical shuntsu) is allowed:
iisousanjun 2
pinfuu 1
tanyao 1
aka dora 1
-> Total 5 han, Mangan


-----------------------------
Referee said:
Also, I would like to know how do the insurance rules work.
You talk about the \"Pao\" rule right?
\"pao: A property of certain yakuman that causes one person to be responsible for the whole payment if they discarded the tile that made it a yakuman.\"

The 3 first scenarii are as Poochy said.
The 3 last are hard to follow and seems irreverent since Pao applies only to daisangen and daisuushii, not to tsuuisou.

From European Mahjong Association rule:
3.3.6 Third melded dragon pung and fourth melded wind pung
A player who feeds the third dragon pung/kong of an opponent or the fourth wind
pung/kong of an opponent must pay the full value of the hand in case Big Three Dragons
or Big FourWinds are made on a self-draw (the two remaining opponents pay nothing).
In case another opponent feeds the Big Three Dragons or Big Four Winds, he
shares the payment with the player who fed the third dragon pung/kong or the fourth
wind pung/kong.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re:Greetings and some questions

Post by Referee » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:01 pm

What I meant with the other scenarios is whether you have to pay half or total the insurance if it happens to be a double (or worse) yakuman.

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Re:Greetings and some questions

Post by Shirluban » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:52 pm

Referee wrote:What I meant with the other scenarios is whether you have to pay half or total the insurance if it happens to be a double (or worse) yakuman.
The exact value of the hand didn\'t matter.

Let say West wins with a double yakuman (64000 points) in case #1.
South have to pay half the total value: 32000.
North pays the other half: 32000.

For case #2, South pays the full amount: 64000.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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