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Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:24 pm
by Ignatius
I´ve read the rules written here in reachmahjong.com and I´ve found that those 2 Fu given for winning with tsumo are not obtained if you obtain a Rinshan Kaihou. But some rules does allow to obtain them, in fact, those rules are becoming incredibly popular... I´m wondering, wich is more popular, to obtain those fu, or not?

Re:Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 1:26 pm
by azn86.jedi
in my personal experience (albeit short) of playing riichi mahjong... the two fu given for tsumo is not given if you win by rinshan kaihou. I tend not to question why it\'s the case, but it would be interesting to know one way or another...

Re:Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:52 pm
by deJENNerate
Hi Ignatius.

In Japan I have never played in any games that award the 2-fu for rinshan-tsumo. This includes pro tournaments, cash games at parlors and home/private games.

I can\'t think of anywhere that they do use the 2-fu, but maybe we can add it in if you\'d like to give us some references (^^

Re:Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:15 pm
by Ignatius
I think I´ve read wrong what I´ve read. Maybe I get confused because I had´nt found anything in my japanese books about that. it´s Manga de wakaru Mahjong nyumon. Maybe I had´nt found yet.

I´ve rememebered where I´ve seen it in the wiki, saying to obtain those 2 Fu with Rinshan is from old rules.

Re:Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:29 pm
by Ignatius
Maybe I´m stupid but when you have multiple waits, how do you count the fu, depends on your winning tile?
Or as multiple waits you earn no fu?
I´ve read the post about the waits, so must be the first option.

Thank you very much!

Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:45 am
by or2az
Reading the above posts from 6 years ago, the opinion seems to be that you do not get the 2 fu when you win on the supplemental tile drawn from the dead wall after a kong.
I was under the impression that you do and have been playing as such. Need clarification.
For example; here, notice the 2 pts for tsumo.
FullSizeRender.jpg
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Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:31 pm
by ardiel
Apparently Saikyo no Mahjong also awards 2 fu for this hand. I never knew about it but it does, and it seems there's no setting to turn it off. I believe this should be 40 fu, not 50.

Image

Don't mind the silly hand, I was just messing around trying to get a rinshan on purpose.

Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:21 pm
by or2az
there's no setting to turn it off. I believe this should be 40 fu, not 50.
Perhaps because there is no reason to turn it off, just as there is no reason to turn off 10 fu for a menzen ron. I agree with the 50 fu.
Show an example where the 2 pt tsumo fu is not awarded (for rinshan kaihou), which is why I revisited this topic.
As far as I know (or think I know), only Pinfu waives the tsumo 2 points.

Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:53 pm
by ardiel
or2az wrote:
there's no setting to turn it off. I believe this should be 40 fu, not 50.
Perhaps because there is no reason to turn it off, just as there is no reason to turn off 10 fu for a menzen ron. I agree with the 50 fu.
Show an example where the 2 pt tsumo fu is not awarded (for rinshan kaihou), which is why I revisited this topic.
As far as I know (or think I know), only Pinfu waives the tsumo 2 points.
That would be hard to show an example of. You would either need an example that lists all the fu, or find one where there should be no rounding where 2 fu makes the difference and those 2 fu could only come from the rinshan tsumo. Otherwise the 2 fu gets buried in the rounding and you cannot tell if it is in effect or not.

Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:08 pm
by or2az
You would either need an example that lists all the fu, or find one where there should be no rounding where 2 fu makes the difference and those 2 fu could only come from the rinshan tsumo.
We did that, with my sample hand, and now, for your screenshot above, The 2 fu awarded for self-draw is what makes it 50 fu (42+rounding). Otherwise, it would only be the 40
FullSizeRender.jpg
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Note: I did it for the dealer, which is why it's 4800 instead of 3200.
Also note that if the Pao rule is in effect, the payments are treated as a RON but it is still a tsumo for scoring the hand (if I learned this correctly)

Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:12 pm
by Gnom
Bit tangent but I have yet to see any real-life setting that enforces pao for rinshan kaihou ;-)

Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:28 pm
by Ignatius
Gnom wrote:Bit tangent but I have yet to see any real-life setting that enforces pao for rinshan kaihou ;-)
So, 咲-Saki doesn't count? :lol:

Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:16 am
by ardiel
or2az wrote:
You would either need an example that lists all the fu, or find one where there should be no rounding where 2 fu makes the difference and those 2 fu could only come from the rinshan tsumo.
We did that, with my sample hand, and now, for your screenshot above, The 2 fu awarded for self-draw is what makes it 50 fu (42+rounding). Otherwise, it would only be the 40
FullSizeRender.jpg
Note: I did it for the dealer, which is why it's 4800 instead of 3200.
Also note that if the Pao rule is in effect, the payments are treated as a RON but it is still a tsumo for scoring the hand (if I learned this correctly)
Right, we already know two cases where 2 fu is awarded. I'm saying it's going to be hard to find more cases where it isn't awarded because if you don't know, you're going to have to test it. I tried finding some among the videos of Tenhou and JanRyuMon etc on Youtube and it's surprisingly difficult to find one that meets the requirements exactly.

Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:00 am
by or2az
Understood. I did find this while searching the rules on TENHOU.
Pretty conclusive. I don't think I will look any further
Tenhou.net rules

Winning with the rinshan tsumo tile is also worth 2 fu (same as self-pick, not extra).

「嶺上ツモも2符加算」

Re: Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:02 am
by Ignatius
or2az wrote:Understood. I did find this while searching the rules on TENHOU.
Pretty conclusive. I don't think I will look any further
Tenhou.net rules

Winning with the rinshan tsumo tile is also worth 2 fu (same as self-pick, not extra).

「嶺上ツモも2符加算」
Yeah, it is what he said. In japanese says: Rinshan Tsumo gets 2 Fu added.