How to explain the yaku

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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by burke » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:02 pm

Senechal wrote:Wei-Hwa Huang's site compiled stuff relating to Toudai-shiki which is a style of mahjong in the way EMA nashi-ari is a style. Is this an authoritative list? It was made in 1998 and updated in 2001. It was made as an attempt to be a better reference than whatever else was on the English internet. And in many ways, it was at that time, doesn't mean it's error-proof.
I merely quoted that page to show that Rosti is not the only one who has counted Chanta together with Honroutou. You seem to be under the illusion that your way of playing mahjong is the only right way to play and I can assure you it is not. Your style of playing is simply a style among others.
Senechal wrote:There's also talk of sextuple and octuple "superlimit" hands. This is the first and only place I have seen so far talking about hands worth yakuman and a half (and we're not counting dealer 1.5x points here). From what I've heard, there are a fair amount of differences with Toudai play compared to standard ari-ari mahjong. It's good to have a resource, but bad to assume it's correct. As a reference, there's one thing that has to be said about references: a solid reference would not have listed a zillion variations (well, you know, you can start with 25k, 26k, 27k or 30k) nor would sections 4 and 5 be incomplete. It would also not have a list of non-yaku hands in it, at the end or anywhere (saying ippatsu isn't counted is one thing but that list is another thing entirely).
I'm surprised you're interested in mahjong at all, because if there is one game that lacks this solid reference it is mahjong.

I find it hard to fault Wei-Hwa Huang for mentioning that people play with different base scores, because it is true, people do. And if you would have read the complete document you would have noticed that a starting score of 27,000 is given at the beginning. Same goes for the different limits, you just conveniently left out the authors remarks:
Wei-Hwa Huang wrote:SEXTUPLE LIMIT: 12000 points. Really special hands. Not possible in Toudai-shiki, but counted by some variants.
OCTUPLE LIMIT (daburu yakuman): 16000 points. Some players use this instead of sextuple limits.
As you can see Octuple Limit is just another term for Double Yakuman and neither this nor Sextuple limit is even used (and only mentioned for completeness).

Concerning the list of extra yaku at the end, you forgot this bit:
Wei-Hwa Huang wrote:3.1.6 Other Multipliers
These multipliers are not in official Toudai-shiki, but are rather common in most social play, so they are listed here.
In fact, Jenn Barr does the same thing in her book, listing both extra "house" yaku and "inflated" dora and other scoring rules.

The missing sections are merely, 4. Examples and 5. Exercises, hardly the most important chapters? In fact, most other rules documents are missing these as well.

Dismissing a source because it is thorough just strikes me as odd...

Addition:
David Hurley's Hiroshima 3-player rules also score Honroutou as 5 han. (http://japanese-mahjong.com/yaku.html)

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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by Senechal » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:36 pm

Are you trying to pick a fight or something? You sound like you're acting out someone else's vendetta for them. There's a difference between not showering with endless compliments and discrediting something, for you to ignore the entire range of possible positions in between, that's a problem you have with well, you.

I never said Huang's page was useless. It really was the best thing available on the internet at that time. It has a lot of good information, but there's always something that's going to be missed somewhere. That and unless it's actually part of your ruleset, I don't think mentioning 3.1.6.4 (1) LITTLE THREE SUIT SAME TRIPLE (sanshokushodoukoo [三色小同刻]) is productive to the reader. In an actual glossary or encyclopedia of mahjong, sure, but this was mentioning Toudai-shiki. For it to make it a reference instead of just a resource, the parameters of a ruleset should be defined in stone. Take the JPML for example. They have an A-rule set. They have a B-rule set. But everything you need and want to know as a rule option can be found within their documentation. They explain their over-the-line uma/rank bonus. With 30 minutes of reading, you know exactly what kind of mahjong they play. This is a reference.

Huang's site is a resource: it talks about mahjong, and focuses on one variant. But it requires more work, both in content and structure. There are a fair amount of rules in Toudai-shiki I am aware that they are different, but I'm not even going to pretend to know them intimately. But if 6.10 for example (Natural Win rule) were a part of Toudai-shiki, I would not put it at the bottom as an option. A reference would have its facts organized slightly better, proof-read, reworked, and believe it or not, critiqued by others. You can do that to works without offending the author through ad hominem or other attacks.

Now we could go off on a tangent saying everyone has a right to choose the rules they want to play with, or modify to their wishes. They do. Is it a good idea though to let people say "well this is okay here, but not there because they found this rule off XYZ website that told them riichi was 9 han."? That's debatable. Does it lead to growth? Probably not. Would it be fair to say that at ReachMahjong, the dominant ruleset would naturally come from the site's founders, and that discussion of other main rulesets is fine? Sure. (JPML A+B (B is pretty much standard* ari-ari with all other options defined in the rules), and EMA) But if your ruleset is an exception to what's normal, wouldn't it be wrong to attempt to say "well, it's right how I or some guy plays it..."

They don't stack in JPML, or since it was mentioned, Tenhou either. Now, if the EMA says they stack, I'd be surprised, but if it's like that in Mexico, well that's great for Mexico. Say so. Then move on.

*standard ari-ari itself is not the best word possible for it but 99% of all cases are the same, and in the case of JPML, the remaining 1% is spelled out and available to understand.

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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by gemma » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:42 am

Polite note to all asking that you try and play nicely. =)

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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by burke » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:18 am

Senechal wrote:Are you trying to pick a fight or something?


Sorry, I did not mean to come off so aggressive. And for the record, I did not learn mahjong from Wei-Hwa Huang's document and I do not play by these rules (I've always counted Honroutou as 4 han). But I find the discussion of the differing ways to score interesting and I do not think it is as clear cut as you do (and I've tried to bring up evidence that others apparently share this opinion).
Senechal wrote:I don't think mentioning 3.1.6.4 (1) LITTLE THREE SUIT SAME TRIPLE (sanshokushodoukoo [三色小同刻]) is productive to the reader.
Again, these yaku are in their own section and clearly mentioned not being a part of Toudai-Shiki, but instead being somewhat common in "social play". I guess I'm being annoyed by your reluctance to read the document properly and acknowledge certain facts before critiquing it. Of course you can dislike the style and aesthetics of the document, but please keep to the facts and don't just pick things out of their context.
Senechal wrote:Take the JPML for example. They have an A-rule set. They have a B-rule set. But everything you need and want to know as a rule option can be found within their documentation. They explain their over-the-line uma/rank bonus. With 30 minutes of reading, you know exactly what kind of mahjong they play. This is a reference.
Sadly the JPML rules are not available in English. Also it think it is quite clear that not everyone in Japan plays by the JPML rules. And as far as I know there are several mahjong leagues in Japan, all with their own rules (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Senechal wrote:But if 6.10 for example (Natural Win rule) were a part of Toudai-shiki, I would not put it at the bottom as an option.
This rule is clearly not part of Toudai-Shiki since it is listed under section "6. Variations" and the author clearly states, "Here are some variations I've heard of or seen. These are definitely not Toudai-shiki, and I'm not sure I got all of these right. Some don't really apply to scoring."
Senechal wrote:A reference would have its facts organized slightly better, proof-read, reworked, and believe it or not, critiqued by others.
With this I wholeheartedly agree, I would also like to see a reference in English for Japanese mahjong. The EMA rules are pretty close, but in my eyes they are flawed and the EMA seems to be very obstinate in correcting even the most obvious errors (confusing yaku with han). Jenn's book is interesting, but her English terminology is confusing to me and many things could be explained more clearly and concisely.

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Trying to get the discussion back on track. To me it seems that the way one interprets whether Chanta should stack with Honroutou is tied to the way that Chanta is defined. If Chanta is defined as requiring a shuntsu, then it cannot stack. But if the definition is, may contain a shuntsu, then it can stack. How is this yaku defined in JPML and other major Japanese rules?

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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by Rosti » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:49 am

If Tenhou says it doesn't stack, then I'll go with Tenhou :P

To get properly into the definitions gets a bit messy. I guess if you want 100% clarification then the definitions will be set out in a way that means there's no potential for confusion, and will say that Chanta and Honroutou don't stack, but it's really just the knowledge that they don't that's really important.

I mean, like I said a few posts ago, I think it should stack just because otherwise Honroutou seems massively undervalued, but if they don't, then they don't. There's plenty of scope to adapt minor differences from various sources of Japanese mahjong (for example, the mahjong in the Saki anime has four red fives, on Tenhou it's three, and of course there are types that don't have them at all), but screwing with things like han seems a bit too fundamental a change, and starting something like that basically just leads to even more local and house variations of a game that's already far too varied in terms of rule-sets.

As a complete aside (hopefully not one that'll need another topic split haha) I do prefer that site's, referral to a "limit" being a mangan hand, not a yakuman hand as is another convention I've seen. The mangan hand is the first one where a limit is applied to the hand score, and it also leads to English terms like limit-and-a-half, double limit and triple limit for the higher-valued hands.
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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by Poochy » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:39 am

As a general rule of thumb, if yaku A implies yaku B (i.e. it is impossible to get yaku A without also having yaku B) and yaku A is worth more than yaku B, then you don't count yaku B. I've found this rule tends to hold across international variants of Mahjong as far as I know.

Note that Shousangen stacks with the two individual dragon yaku because none of them are explicitly implied. You can have Shousangen + Haku + Hatsu, Shousangen + Haku + Chun, or Shousangen + Hatsu + Chun, but none of the three are guaranteed.

In the case of Honroutou, it stacks with Toitoihou because it's also possible, albeit unlikely, to have Honroutou + Chiitoitsu; thus Toitoihou is not implied. Chanta, however, is implied, and if it's open, it's only worth 1 han. Thus, by the above rule of thumb, it shouldn't be counted. All Mahjong video games I'm aware of don't count Chanta in this case, though your house rules may vary.

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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by Referee » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:34 pm

So, Hatsu, Haku, and Chun are three different yaku? Interesting...

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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by Shirluban » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:37 pm

Referee wrote:So, Hatsu, Haku, and Chun are three different yaku? Interesting...
In the rulebook, it's the same yaku, named yakupai 「役牌」 or fanpai/hanpai or even sangenpai 「三元牌」.
But in all video games I've seen, it's write differently at scoring, as if it is different yaku:
発 / 發 [hatsu]
中 [chuu]
白 [haku]

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南南 [double south]
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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by Referee » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:29 pm

Fair enough, but it's the same yaku. Do we have any other yaku that can occur in multiples?

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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by b4k4ni04 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:10 pm

If you mean a bunch of Yaku that can potentially be called the same Yaku, no. I think Yakupai splitting up into dragons and winds is the only instance of that.
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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by Referee » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:14 pm

I mean a yaku that can happen twice in a hand (like Yakupai, which can happen up to four times: Tonton Chun Haku Honroutou Honitsu Toitoi Riichi Tsumo. Kazoe Yakuman."

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Re: How to explain the yaku

Post by Ignatius » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:32 pm

There is no other yaku that can happen twice or more times at the same time.
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