Dude, where's the strategy?

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Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Fat*Dragon » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:45 pm

Dear fellow players, there is one thing which makes my head ache when I think about it. That's why I write. I hope people are willing to share their impressions or maybe solutions which make them enjoy their game, especially when they play on Tenhou.

I like to play Riichi and usually I like to play it at Tenhou (open lobby) since I rarely have the opportunity to play live with other players. I chose Riichi as my favourite game (or did it choose me?) and I'm trying to be serious about it. I grasp every little information I can get a hold of and I'm an avid listener of reachmahong.com's podcasts. What I like about Riichi is the fact that there's quite a good portion of strategy involved. At least this is what you can read everywhere and what Garthe and Jenn tell us at their podcasts when they talk about their adventure of being a pro on the JPML. There would be no "what would you discard" quizzes and articles on "discard reading" if it weren't like that. So far so good.

Thanks to the gods of mahjong I climbed up the ladder on Tenhou's dan ranking up to 2nd dan. And that's where the trouble started... It might have been there before, but I didn't recognize it. Now, that I've gotten a little more experienced (don't get me wrong, I'm not thinking that I'm a good player) I feel that there is a serious lack of strategy in most games I come across. In most games I've played the last weeks it boils down to the strategy of "going for it" - and I'm not talking about beginners. It's folks with all kinds of ranks and dans. Seldom I see players folding their hand when they recognize that they are too far from Tenpai (5 to 6 tiles, some centre waits). Also rare are people folding their hand when a reach stick is on the table or when there is a serious threat of a open half/full flush. There seems to be no risk to high to not take it. When I watch the replays of my games I check people's hands. The moment the "reach button" appears they loose their intelligence and act like trained apes who were told to hit the flashing button. There's no self questioning of "what do I have in my hand" or "what am I going against".

The first time I really realized this phenomenon was as I paid the tenpai penalty to the three people in my game. Not in just one game. In one game after another and another and so on. It might be that I'm acting too defensive but I rather pay 1.000 points (or 1500 points or 3000 points) than playing in a 12.000 points dealer hand. Watching the replays I see people keeping up their tenpai hands worth 1.000 or 2.000 points. Is it really worth it? Maybe they are so experienced that they can read any single discard on the board and exactly know that they don't have to fear anyone? I don't know.

Another example are flushes/half flushes. It takes quite some hits before people realize that playing into them definitley hurts. But like I say, at the beginning you don't scare anyone away with that tactics.

I play for more experience, fun, advancing on the Tenhou ranks - that's my motivation. But to face this kind of play makes me sick. Maybe it's my fault of not being good enough to cope with these kinds of situations or maybe it's Tenhou's structure which favors "risk lovers".

What do you guys think? I really appreciate any comments on this.

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Rosti » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:38 pm

Where exactly are you playing on Tenhou?

If you're in the open lobby, not the dan lobby, then yeah, you're going to get a lot of players who aren't that good and who don't play with strategy in mind that much. If you pass up the option to play with experienced players only to play with people who can be total beginners, then you're in a bit of a daft position to complain when nobody seems to play with any skill or defence. Also, if you're playing East only, then aggressive play is generally rewarded more as there are fewer rounds and far less scope for playing patiently.

Almost all of the time I spend on Tenhou is in the dan lobby, playing Ari Red East & South, or Ari Red Fast East & South. Pretty much any other game modes are going to see far less skilled players and far more luck coming into play. You still get the odd duff player, but there are at least a reasonable number of them who seem to know how to play properly.
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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by jcr661 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:47 pm

Play on ron2 and you game will improve with time.

you can't read you way to competence.

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Fat*Dragon » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:11 pm

@Rosti
I'm playing at the open lobby, East & South round games. I don't like East only games. I will try the dan lobby. But what are you playing there for? Is there also a raking involved?

@jcr661
that's what I also considered. But there is no proper "how to get an account & play" documentation. Since I can't read Japanese this is kind of a problem.

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Shirluban » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:42 pm

Fat*Dragon wrote:@jcr661
that's what I also considered. But there is no proper "how to get an account & play" documentation. Since I can't read Japanese this is kind of a problem.
There is one here:
http://www.reachmahjong.com/home/index. ... Itemid=110
Let us know if you find it useful.
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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by xKime » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:42 am

Hey, there. I play on Tenhou too. Currently 5th dan.

I can actually relate to what you say. But please, do consider that people in the open lobby are not taking it serious anyway. Even I, myself, like to play anonimously in the open lobby when I don't want to think or want to test hand theories, and don't give it much thought. Sometimes, I even rage-quit because it's not worth of it and the open lobby/一般 is not going to measure your true skill.

Then, you have the lower dan room (上級). It's better, but not quite yet! You have to play very digital and avoid dealing in to make your way to 4dan R1800. Normally, you would think "I can't abandon a hand with 4 dora..." or "This riichi should scare them away" but in that room, it will simply come back to bite you even if everyone would agree it was the best strategy. The best strategy there, is last place avoidance. Do not deal in, and win as fast and steady as you can (study tile efficiency and technique of calling tiles). If you try to imitate the pros of Nihon Pro Maajan Renmei from Mondo 21's videos, you're in for a world of hurt. You don't have enough time to finish a neat hand, because some jerkoff will end the hand with yakuhai nomi. A 3900 win is the best kind of win if you can finish early.

It gets considerably better once your reach the higher dan room (特上). You can start using strategy there. People in there still make mistakes, but it's normally mistakes that only hurt themselves and not others. You can play there knowing that everyone is trying their best, even if some people are just a little short on skill (myself included). I play more seriously in higher dan, than in lower dan (I currently also play in lower dan with my sub-account of only 3rd dan)

As for the difference between ranking in those three, the higher the room you play in, the more points you win.
There is a whole set of documentation about tenhou's features here:
http://arcturus.su/tenhou/

If you really think about it, the problem is not "I'm playing with amateurs" or "I'm playing with pros." The problem is, having both mixed and keep making you guess what kind of player you are up against. You assume people will suck, and they suddenly decide to go skillful on you. (Oh, yeah, this guy ALWAYS reaches when he is ready, so this means he's not ready yet... oh, crap, why did I deal in?")

A good strategy you can use at tenhou, is let "the lucky guy" kill the other two guys off and you can stay out of the line of fire for a sweet second place and a +15 points. If you aim for second, you'll avoid fourth a lot more.

If your problem seems to be "Even if I don't deal in, I'm always ending last! They always get mangan/haneman tsumo!" then you're not ensambling your hands fast enough. There's nothing embarrassing about winning with 1000 points, if you can finish it early and kill your opponent's chances for a decent hand.

In all this time playing on tenhou, I can say tenhou is a special kind of mahjong. And most of that is because of the way you are awarded your rank.

A solid and steady game will bump you to higher dan. And from higher dan, eventually, phoenix room.

EDIT: Ah, and I hate to say this, but... you're actually better off playing East Only until you reach higher dan. The reason is, the idiot(s) who dealt in during the whole east round still have a nice chance to come back during south to drag you down. If you play East only, you have avoided fourth place as soon as someone deals in. Do not let it be you.

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Barticle » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:00 am

Hi xKime. Good to see you posting here. When I'm catching up with blogs I read you, Osamu and Bazoro. I hope that your Etopen is still working his yakuman magic for you? :D

You mentioned tile efficiency - I'm sure several members here would be interested in the excellent work you've been doing on translating articles recently. Always great to see more English-language resources. Good job! 8)

http://www.osamuko.com/2010/10/15/tile- ... 01-part-1/
http://www.osamuko.com/2010/10/29/tile- ... 01-part-2/

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by xKime » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:22 am

Barticle wrote:Hi xKime. Good to see you posting here. When I'm catching up with blogs I read you, Osamu and Bazoro. I hope that your Etopen is still working his yakuman magic for you? :D

You mentioned tile efficiency - I'm sure several members here would be interested in the excellent work you've been doing on translating articles recently. Always great to see more English-language resources. Good job! 8)

http://www.osamuko.com/2010/10/15/tile- ... 01-part-1/
http://www.osamuko.com/2010/10/29/tile- ... 01-part-2/
Hi, Barticle. That's great, that always boosts me to write/translate more. I don't use my Etopen that much anymore, because I try not to leave him at a spot where my cat can reach him. w
But my cat does bring me a good amount of luck, though. When he's not walking on my keyboard making me discard a random tile suddenly. w

I'm working on getting part three done right now!

Also, the "Jansou Mode" post is great material, imo.
jcr661 wrote:Play on ron2 and you game will improve with time.

you can't read you way to competence.
I beg to disagree, and add that you can't play your way to competence either. I mean, you probably can, but it would take you at least 60 years.
Of course, people (especially young players) who don't read probably will never realize they are incompetent either, so you will find a lot of players who say "I'm strong relying on raw experience only!"

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Fat*Dragon » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:30 pm

@Shirluban
Hi Shirluban, thanks for posting the link with the instructions on how to get an account on Ron2. I'll let you/the people here know if it was helpful to me.

@xKime
Thank you for taking the time and writing something really helpful and motivating. For me your post is the most valuable on how to play in quite some time. I guess there are quite a few people like me, who gained a little experience through online play but at some point don't know how to advance their play and get frustrated with Tenhou's open lobby.

I'm gratefull that you backed my theory of "lack of skill" in the open lobby. After I wrote my initial post I felt like an idiot to write something like that because it is easy to accuse other people of bad play when you just lost your full flush hand to a cheap yakuhai hand. I would lie if I would say that this doesn't hurt :-) But losing is part of the game and to play riichi means also to deal with defeats. But it's really not about one or the other game, it's more about the whole thing. And of course I would like to say that there are also people playing in the open lobby which really know how to play - just in case somebody gets the impression through my post that on Tenhou's open lobby skill is absent.
If you try to imitate the pros of Nihon Pro Maajan Renmei from Mondo 21's videos, you're in for a world of hurt. You don't have enough time to finish a neat hand, ...
That's exactly what I think. After watching Mondo's videos you might know how to squeeze a hand but you don't know how to play your way through Tenhou's open lobby.

I could also comment on all other examples which I felt you took straight out of open lobby play, but it's not neccesseary because I've seen these kind of situations so often and you're right on every single one of it. I can only recommend your post as one of the best I've ever read on playing real life online mahjong (no folks, I'm not getting paid by xKime to say that), especially on Tenhou - like you say, this might be a platform where some odd mahjong physics takes place and not every riichi rule set on this planet favours playing tactics like you described in your post, that has to be kept in mind.

@Barticle
Thanks for posting the links to the articles on tile efficiency - I lately lost track of Osamuko's great site!

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Barticle » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:06 pm

xKime wrote:But my cat does bring me a good amount of luck, though. When he's not walking on my keyboard making me discard a random tile suddenly. w
:lol: Cats always think they know best!
Fat*Dragon wrote:Thanks for posting the links to the articles on tile efficiency - I lately lost track of Osamuko's great site!
No problem, FD. In case you missed it on the homepage there, here's a direct link to Kime's other article he mentioned above - tips* on playing under the extra rules in the new Jansou mode on Tenhou.

http://www.osamuko.com/2010/10/18/how-t ... nsou-mode/

*Unintentional pun!

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Fat*Dragon » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:19 am


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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Barticle » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:22 pm


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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Fat*Dragon » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:25 pm

Truly a concealed kong! :-)
Very funny - reminds me on the comics you posted some time ago on the old forum.

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by Barticle » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:28 am

Found some more pics for you. :D

http://sky.ap.teacup.com/applet/subtropics/140_1/image
"i halps break da wall for youz."

http://blog-imgs-31-origin.fc2.com/a/s/ ... G_7579.jpg
"sawry i iz too cuute for this marjon fing."

http://www.exblog.jp/blog_logo.asp?slt= ... 232887.jpg
"he ponned my dora!" :x

http://d13n9ry8xcpemi.cloudfront.net/ph ... 6e_400.jpg
"i found you a 1 bamz - but I eated it."

http://nekoyaginji.cocolog-nifty.com/bl ... -13cd.html
Some top-level pro play on that page!

That last one reminds me - I was playing Rod from the Portland MJ Society on Janline-R earlier this evening and I got one away from tenpai on All Green... I had *twelve* beautiful pure green tiles... then a bot went out with some cheap ugly hand! :cry:

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Re: Dude, where's the strategy?

Post by b4k4ni04 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:36 am

Shouldn't he(sir ryuuisou) have nothing to worry about as it's an abortive draw on triple ron? nrr. I forget if triple ron is an official or a house rule, it'd rly suck to lose because Atama Hane is in effect and he actually has to pay out.
〜〜〜星空が最高の舞台/カラスたちカーカーと鳴くよ/いつも思うよ いつ寝てるんだろ〜〜〜 I'm sorry teh b4k4 is lost to GlDeMo please try again later *bzzt* 〜b4k4

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