Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi, MCR, ZJ

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Esh » Thu May 17, 2012 2:01 am

This topic made me research up on Zung Jung, something I hadn't heard of until just now. After playing around with the rules for a tad bit, I just really don't like or understand their principal. It seems like the creator has gone out of his way to reduce luck as much as possible in an inherently luck-based game in an effort to cut down on what is simply a present undertone. It just makes me wonder "Why not simply play Go if that's how you feel about the other styles?" In fact, the general vibe I get from it is that he doesn't like how defensive Riichi is and maybe is even frustrated after seeing an opponent with his winning tile in hand more than he should care for, but the more offensive styles seem to greatly upset him for it's sheer imbalance of luck over technique.

As for the game itself, I played a quick game of it, but so far it seems that the best strategy to get into first place is to find out which pattern you can make and make it as quickly as possible through rampant stealing. The concealed hands are a huge sign as there are so few hands that require being concealed, and essentially, there's nothing you can do about it other than hope he doesn't draw what he needs and ends up in tenpai. I also don't like the aspect of everyone pays if the value is low enough, as most of the hands that were completed rarely broke through that value.

Finally, the aspect I dislike the most is the lack of lucky tile situations it provides. If I were to ever get a tenhou in Zung Jung, I would simply cry. One of the rarest occurrences in Mahjong altogether, and potentially, it could be worth only a chicken hand. There's really almost no point in playing Zung Jung instead of Go or Shogi if you're going to tone down the unique luck elements that much.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Moah » Fri May 18, 2012 6:38 am

Finally, the aspect I dislike the most is the lack of lucky tile situations it provides. If I were to ever get a tenhou in Zung Jung, I would simply cry. One of the rarest occurrences in Mahjong altogether, and potentially, it could be worth only a chicken hand. There's really almost no point in playing Zung Jung instead of Go or Shogi if you're going to tone down the unique luck elements that much.
Zung Jung gives 155 points for tenho, I don't see how that's a chicken hand?
9.4.1 Blessing of Heaven (天和) : 155
East winning with his initial 14-tile hand.
(Does not count if East has made a concealed kong.)

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Esh » Fri May 18, 2012 6:42 am

Moah wrote:
Finally, the aspect I dislike the most is the lack of lucky tile situations it provides. If I were to ever get a tenhou in Zung Jung, I would simply cry. One of the rarest occurrences in Mahjong altogether, and potentially, it could be worth only a chicken hand. There's really almost no point in playing Zung Jung instead of Go or Shogi if you're going to tone down the unique luck elements that much.
Zung Jung gives 155 points for tenho, I don't see how that's a chicken hand?
9.4.1 Blessing of Heaven (天和) : 155
East winning with his initial 14-tile hand.
(Does not count if East has made a concealed kong.)
Oh wow, I completely missed that. I don't even know how that happened. Still, it's not particularly a ruleset I enjoyed.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Torgo » Sat May 19, 2012 1:29 pm

Esh wrote:This topic made me research up on Zung Jung, something I hadn't heard of until just now. After playing around with the rules for a tad bit, I just really don't like or understand their principal. It seems like the creator has gone out of his way to reduce luck as much as possible in an inherently luck-based game in an effort to cut down on what is simply a present undertone. It just makes me wonder "Why not simply play Go if that's how you feel about the other styles?"
Well I think you've largely figured it out right there. To turn it around, if you like luck so much, why not just cut a deck of cards and have the losers give all their money to the winner? I can say that I prefer Zung Jung over any other mahjong style because of the reduction in luck. To me, it seems unfair that a player with a valueless hand such as pinfu can score an overwhelming number of points because of luck-based add-ons like menzen tsumo, ippatsu, kan dora, and ura dora. Again to me, it makes sense in riichi to go out as quickly as possible, because you cannot plan your score when luck overwhelms anything based on the patterns you create.

In my limited experience, riichi players only play riichi and no other competitive games, while the people I play Zung Jung with also play many other board games. Riichi seems unbalanced due to luck and therefore a worse game. Even poker (to compare to another limited knowledge game) where you decide how much to bet based on your own hand has an advantage because you limit your own losses.
As for the game itself, I played a quick game of it, but so far it seems that the best strategy to get into first place is to find out which pattern you can make and make it as quickly as possible through rampant stealing.
Indeed it is. That is the designed goal, and he's done an excellent job of it. It makes the game more fun to play and to watch.

The score given to each element is designed to balance risk versus reward. Seeing how many points you get for a pattern gives you an excellent idea about how hard that pattern is to complete. Your own tiles complete the picture.
I also don't like the aspect of everyone pays if the value is low enough, as most of the hands that were completed rarely broke through that value.
You are entitled to like what you like, but your experience does not match mine. Once players try to win the game, they will not go for small hands.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Kyuu » Sun May 20, 2012 4:03 am

Torgo wrote:Well I think you've largely figured it out right there. To turn it around, if you like luck so much, why not just cut a deck of cards and have the losers give all their money to the winner? I can say that I prefer Zung Jung over any other mahjong style because of the reduction in luck. To me, it seems unfair that a player with a valueless hand such as pinfu can score an overwhelming number of points because of luck-based add-ons like menzen tsumo, ippatsu, kan dora, and ura dora. Again to me, it makes sense in riichi to go out as quickly as possible, because you cannot plan your score when luck overwhelms anything based on the patterns you create.

In my limited experience, riichi players only play riichi and no other competitive games, while the people I play Zung Jung with also play many other board games. Riichi seems unbalanced due to luck and therefore a worse game. Even poker (to compare to another limited knowledge game) where you decide how much to bet based on your own hand has an advantage because you limit your own losses.
Oh. That luck aspect creates some very whacko situations. :lol: Of which, that aspect creates some bit of insanity. Personally, I'm losing my mind the more I play the game. The emotional rollercoaster behind such things can be quite "trippy". Who needs drugs anyways? :mrgreen: :twisted: To deal with this "luck aspect", it involves a matter of not placing oneself into that kind of situation in the first place, per the defensive game.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Esh » Sun May 20, 2012 8:52 am

Torgo wrote:Well I think you've largely figured it out right there. To turn it around, if you like luck so much, why not just cut a deck of cards and have the losers give all their money to the winner? I can say that I prefer Zung Jung over any other mahjong style because of the reduction in luck. To me, it seems unfair that a player with a valueless hand such as pinfu can score an overwhelming number of points because of luck-based add-ons like menzen tsumo, ippatsu, kan dora, and ura dora. Again to me, it makes sense in riichi to go out as quickly as possible, because you cannot plan your score when luck overwhelms anything based on the patterns you create.
if you like luck so much, why not just cut a deck of cards and have the losers give all their money to the winner?
Riichi Mahjong is fun in that it's a game where luck is a wild factor that adds new elements to the game, but at the same time there's a consistent strategy and amount of skill that can be used in order to fight back and win. It's like assuming Poker is strictly luck based, when there's a real amount of skill being put into the game to overcome things such as luck. Also:
To me, it seems unfair that a player with a valueless hand such as pinfu can score an overwhelming number of points because of luck-based add-ons like menzen tsumo, ippatsu, kan dora, and ura dora.
It's not unfair, because that element can apply to ANYBODY at any given moment. Instead of thinking it like "Well, he could just get all of this luck, so I don't like it", you should think in terms of "I look forward to gaining more points and an advantage if things go my way!" Thinking in terms of the former is assuming "I'm definitely going to lose this hand, and I don't like that."
Again to me, it makes sense in riichi to go out as quickly as possible, because you cannot plan your score when luck overwhelms anything based on the patterns you create.
Luck also dictates which patterns you make in the first place. Sure, you can effectively discard, but it's still a matter of luck if you wind up 2 away from tenpai, or 5 away from tenpai. Mahjong is an inherently luck based game. The reason why I like Riichi so much is, again, because you can do something ABOUT that luck. You can capitalize on your own, or you can attempt to mess up the luck of other people through discard reading or calling if you believe in flow.
In my limited experience, riichi players only play riichi and no other competitive games, while the people I play Zung Jung with also play many other board games. Riichi seems unbalanced due to luck and therefore a worse game. Even poker (to compare to another limited knowledge game) where you decide how much to bet based on your own hand has an advantage because you limit your own losses.
I also play Go, a zero-luck based game, DnD and other forms of pen and paper tabletop games, a collection of many board games including Risk, stratego, and of course, chess, as well as shogi, including a number of other games. Even fighting games and strategy games. I'm a bit of a game enthusiast actually. Of the games I play, besides DnD and Go, I tend to prefer Riichi because it is in fact quite balanced out, especially with the small luck elements playing as a wild factor. In fact, games with luck and unknown elements tend to be the most interesting games there are. Stratego is an incredibly fun game because although there's zero-luck involved in the game, there's still a large factor of unknown, such as "Did the enemy place the spy, or the captain here? Maybe he would place a bomb and try to fool me?" It makes the game interesting, fresh, and unique.

Also, the skill in Poker comes purely from the gambling and psychology aspect of it, rather than the actual hands. The same situations can occur in Riichi, such as decalring Riichi and your opponents immediately going on the defensive. Or the calling of suit tiles making it more difficult for that player's suit tiles to come out. Riichi is more or less balanced in the situations rather than in the hands and points.
Indeed it is. That is the designed goal, and he's done an excellent job of it. It makes the game more fun to play and to watch.

The score given to each element is designed to balance risk versus reward. Seeing how many points you get for a pattern gives you an excellent idea about how hard that pattern is to complete. Your own tiles complete the picture.
...
You are entitled to like what you like, but your experience does not match mine. Once players try to win the game, they will not go for small hands.
[/quote]

Actually, when I said that, I was lamenting the decision allowing players to win a round on a "chicken hand", because even if you don't have a good pattern to start randomly stealing tiles from, you can simply make a chicken hand and ruin the other player's hands on the spot. "I'm too far away from any of the patterns here, so I might as well just make a chicken hand to prevent them from winning" is actually WORSE than having Open Tanyao hands. And the only real way to combat that is to HOPE to get lucky and make a chicken hand faster than the other guy makes HIS chicken hand, because there's simply no punishment for doing that. Eventually, a player will get lucky and be able to make an easy to steal pattern and go for that instead, earning him points, and then after that, it's chickens, chickens, chickens everywhere.

Actually, my two main problems with Zung Jung when I think about it.

Chicken hands emphasize the mentality of "Get into first place, and tear apart other people's hands with cheap wins"
And the removal of Luck and wildcards just makes the game incredibly bland. Like a steak without fat. Sure, we don't go to a resturant to EAT that fat on a steak, but it's the fat that makes it so tasty. Without it, the steak is kinda flavorless.

I mean, with Zung Jung, you might as well just play Gin Rummy with a $50+ set of cards, right?

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by xKime » Sun May 20, 2012 3:17 pm

I don't even need to say it but, "Zung Jung is better and less luck-influenced, and since I'm such a skilled player I prefer it!" sounds like people saying "I'm really good at mahjong, but I can't get past 3rd/4th dan in any mahjong server, and I lose whenever I play with my less-skilled friends IRL. And that's not because I suck at riichi, that's because it's more luck-influenced!"

That you think you're good, and you cannot reach 7 dan at tenhou for the life of you (or get top 10 at an EMA tournament or whatever) doesn't mean you're just an unlucky being and that mahjong is so luck-influenced that it's holding you back. And if you think that, think again if you've made any achievements in Zung Jung as well. In fact, if you can't progress at riichi or get past the "luck" barrier, then you have to admit you suck. Come on, at least a little. Anybody can just discard tiles and aim for pinfu, or their favorite yaku or whatever, but it requires a huge amount of skill to overcome luck factors to come ahead winning long-term. If anything, since Zung-Jung reduces the amount of skill you need to overcome the luck factor, it actually -reduces- the required skill in a different way.

You can think of it from other points of view as well. Riichi Mahjong evolved through almost a century in Japan. Zung Jung was created in a few months, maybe a couple of years if you count previous planning, by... some guy (Alan, was it?). Riichi is the favorite rule system in Japan (and among many foreign communities) and there are dozens of tournaments that adopt it. Zung Jung was played... 2 or 3 times at the World Series of Mahjong (or wherever it was). And even since then, it's not like many people still seriously consider it as "fun" or even "better" to play; only a small group of fanboys would say that, but then again, no one who has made any serious achievements in the riichi world (calling Alan an "avid riichi player" doesn't count).

And then again, you have famous riichi exponents who are incredibly skilled and who have accomplished impressive feats in the riichi world. Sasaki Hisato, the parlor staff who made 10,000,000Y playing mahjong. Fukuchi Makoto, one of the few people to live exclusively off Mahjong (mahjong writer+gambler), known to make very good money playing high, high-rate mahjong (1,000PT = 1000Y). Also, our dearest Kajimoto Takunori does very well wherever he plays, too. Zung Jung doesn't really have any exponents particularly famous for their Zung Jung skills/achievements ("Alan, for creating it" or "RandomGuyFromXTourney because he won! (somebody had to win, anyway)" do not count).

So I'd say reality speaks by itself. You're entitled to like what you like, but if you think there is less skill involved in riichi, your appreciation of riichi is off. I suggest to you that you study riichi mahjong strategy to "overcome" this luck and stop losing.

Or maybe you don't lose at all, or you're not a mediocre player either, you just win every riichi mahjong game you play, so you find no challenge in it. In which case, I suggest you join Tenhou and aim for Tenhou'i ("11th" dan). They could use a 4th one for really famous, maybe even well-paid, tournaments. In any case, you're entitled to "have fun" with Zung Jung (though I can think of at least 10 things more fun than Zung Jung, such as nailing your feet to the ground, or push your eyes hard into your eye-sockets until you see psychedelic stars or just not playing it).

Since more than one person felt that this post was aimed directly at them, I'm not writing this as a reply to anyone in particular. It is a general use of the pronoun "you," not aimed at a particular user(s), as all my posts (unless I quote someone). I didn't even really mind who was in/against it in the original posts. Just generalizing, keeping alive one of the few active threads as of late. Stop the hate, bring in the passion. I mean, love.
Last edited by xKime on Mon May 21, 2012 8:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Shirluban » Sun May 20, 2012 6:07 pm

To compare Riichi and Zung Jung, the real question is: "Which color is the best? blue or red?"

- Zung Jung was created by Alan Kwan to lower the luck factor with a scoring system based on hand probabilities.
E.g. there is twice more chances to have Half Flush that Full Flush, so Full Flush is rewarded twice more than Half Flush.
- Riichi have many luck-based rewards than can be controlled by the players.
E.g. to have ippatsu you need to declare riichi (skill-based), you'd better have many waits (skill-based), and either draw your winning tile (luck-based) or have an opponent giving it to you ("lack of opponent skill"-based).

They are two different games with two different concerns and two different gameplays.
Some people will like more one rule, and some people will like more the other one.
It's a matter of personal preferences, so it seems unfair to declare that one rule is "better" and the other "sucks" (Chinese Official is an other story, since this rule have many inconstancies).
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Torgo » Sun May 20, 2012 7:07 pm

Esh wrote:
Torgo wrote:To me, it seems unfair that a player with a valueless hand such as pinfu can score an overwhelming number of points because of luck-based add-ons like menzen tsumo, ippatsu, kan dora, and ura dora.
It's not unfair, because that element can apply to ANYBODY at any given moment.
Instead of "unfair" (which it plainly is not, as you rightly pointed out), I should have used "unbalanced."
Chicken hands emphasize the mentality of "Get into first place, and tear apart other people's hands with cheap wins"
That simply will not work because sometimes good scoring hands will be made faster than your chicken hand. Even a single set of dragons scores the same as ten chicken hands.
Last edited by Shirluban on Sun May 20, 2012 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Mismatched quote tags.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Torgo » Sun May 20, 2012 7:21 pm

xKime wrote:Anybody can just discard tiles and aim for pinfu, or their favorite yaku or whatever, but it requires a huge amount of skill to overcome luck factors to come ahead winning long-term.
This is very true. However, I believe that long term in riichi is hundreds or thousands of games, which pushes out the reward for learning into several years. That's too long a time frame for me. It's my personal taste.
You can think of it from other points of view as well. Riichi Mahjong evolved through almost a century in Japan. Zung Jung was created in a few months, maybe a couple of years
This is completely irrelevant. If some more excellent, demonstrably better style came along, would it be less better because it is new? I'm not saying Zung Jung is that system. I'm also not saying riichi isn't good or enjoyable. Many people play it very happily. Even more people play HKOS and enjoy that. Are they wrong too? 300,000 people buy the National Mah-Jongg League card every year. OK, that one I cannot explain.:)
You're entitled to like what you like, but if you think there is less skill involved in riichi, your appreciation of riichi is off.
I made no such claim. I know it takes a lot of skill to play well. Too much skill in my view. My only claim is that scores in Zung Jung are more related to the risks than in riichi, which makes it a more balanced game -- one that I feel is actually worth my time playing.

Time is the only resource we cannot renew in this world, and I don't enjoy spending my time in a deeply flawed, imbalanced game, no matter how popular it is elsewhere.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Kyuu » Sun May 20, 2012 7:37 pm

Oh, the passion and the arguments. So delicious! :twisted:
Shirluban wrote:They are two different games with two different concerns and two different gameplays.
Some people will like more one rule, and some people will like more the other one.
It's a matter of personal preferences, so it seems unfair to declare that one rule is "better" and the other "sucks" (Chinese Official is an other story, since this rule have many inconstancies).
And this has been probably mahjong's biggest weakness -- aside from the learning curve and cost of materials. $70 shipping on a junk mat. :lol:

With the different flavors of mahjong - and the fact that the rules of one flavor can be further modified -- it really makes it difficult to have an objective view on a rule set, as one player may choose one flavor and another player may choose... different one. As a result, you have players of one camp vs that of other camps. For the sake of the game, that's not good. Personally, I haven't looked much into Zung Jung just yet. I may just have a looksee for a matter of perspective.

To this day, I'm still surprised to see Poker on ESPN. But this is a solid game with uniform rules that pretty much everyone in the world and their mother can agree upon. For now, we're stuck watching professional mahjong play via YouTube.

Be as it is may, I did observe Torgo playing some bit of Riichi with the Chicago group, and per my observation, I wasn't sure if the man was having fun or not. If I remember correctly, we were shooting for some fast hands, per usual. So, if we made your Riichi experience that of a bad one, my bad dawg. :wink:

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Torgo » Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 pm

Kyuu wrote:Be as it is may, I did observe Torgo playing some bit of Riichi with the Chicago group, and per my observation, I wasn't sure if the man was having fun or not. If I remember correctly, we were shooting for some fast hands, per usual. So, if we made your Riichi experience that of a bad one, my bad dawg. :wink:
I have been know to exaggerate to emphasize a point now and then.

I am very glad I played with you and your crew! I learned so much in those few hands. First, than I am seriously outclassed in riichi. Second, I cannot stand to have the tiles overturned during mixing. :) Third, that I am very lucky to have created a large group of mahjong players who all play my particular way because I taught them not only the rules, but set the example for the culture of the game.

Those games also helped cement my opinion that riichi is not my cup of tea. I am very grateful. I also am glad that you all have a great time with the game.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Esh » Mon May 21, 2012 12:54 am

Torgo wrote:That simply will not work because sometimes good scoring hands will be made faster than your chicken hand. Even a single set of dragons scores the same as ten chicken hands.
HOLD IT!

A single set of dragons is one of the easiest things to make and also encourages stealing for. It only takes one set for the chicken runner to suddenly be very well in the lead, and anybody going up against him trying to make slower, bigger hands is bound to have their hand torn apart with the speed of the calls. Also, the statement admits that the way to combat the chicken hand is sheer luck, as only "Sometimes" will a good scoring hand will be made faster. It is not a matter of "simply" in that case at all.
Togo wrote:I made no such claim.
Well I think you've largely figured it out right there. To turn it around, if you like luck so much, why not just cut a deck of cards and have the losers give all their money to the winner? I can say that I prefer Zung Jung over any other mahjong style because of the reduction in luck.
You didn't say it directly, but you heavily implied it.

However. . .
and I don't enjoy spending my time in a deeply flawed, imbalanced game, no matter how popular it is elsewhere.

I should have used "unbalanced."
This is the statement that I take the most offense with. Yes, Zung Jung grades it's hands based on the mathematical probability that it will show up in a player's hand. Sure. But Riichi grades the hands based on the difficulty of the situation or conditions in which they're made under. Daisangen is a yakuman, but actually getting all three dragon sets isn't particularly hard. The difficulty comes from how less likely your opponents are to discard dragon tiles should a Daisangen threaten to rear it's ugly head, which makes quite more difficult to get it into your hand. Same thing applies with things like Chanta, Tanyao, Half-flush, Full Flush, All Terminals, Straight hands, the bonuses are applied in regards to how easy or hard the hands are to make based on the whole situation of the table, including the discards, other players, the tile stealing, etc.

Zung Jung, I definitely feel, ESPECIALLY with the inclusion of Chicken Hands, which I really can't get over how dumb this is, doesn't take this into account. It emphasizes attacking over effectiveness or defense, almost as if it's ignoring the other players. In fact, on his website, he even outright says he prefers it that way, only paying attention to the limit hands and discouraging "not going for it" or defense. It's a really awful policy on a luck based game to ignore defense like that, in my honest opinion.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by Torgo » Mon May 21, 2012 3:32 am

Esh wrote:Riichi grades the hands based on the difficulty of the situation or conditions in which they're made under.
I would sincerely like to believe this, but I've seen no evidence for it. I admit I haven't searched very hard, but I've not even seen a hint that this is the case. The yaku seem to me to be scored on their perceived difficulty by some unknown small mahjong club, and based on the Chinese Classical doubling system that was apparently invented by gamblers, not anyone knowledgeable in statistics or game theory. The values seem to have stuck because of tradition and inflexibility instead of any research or analyses.

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Re: Discussion regarding rule sets based around Riichi and M

Post by xKime » Mon May 21, 2012 3:44 pm

While in riichi mahjong, your hand score (while concealed) is never really limited to what your starting hand is, in Zung Jung you depend a lot more on your initial hand, as you're less likely to form a path to the score you need for yourself if it just isn't there. I don't see how that decreases luck, rather than increasing it. Sure, you can absolutely negate your hand and force some flush or toitoi hand, but then again that's what most riichi beginners do. You have to remember that the strong point of riichi is the importance of concealed hand (discipline) and as long as you protect that, your initial hand has no limits.

Most of the skill riichi requires comes from within its scoring system itself. Whether to take a 5200pt ryanmen or change it for a 8000pt shanpon, without any particular situation 5200 is preferred (EV+), and you may choose the mangan road if it's the last hand and you need it. As for Zung Jung, since the "scoring is balanced," the more yaku the better, you're encouraged to catch yaku like pokemanz instead of stopping to think about why you're discarding what you're discarding. Alan tried to fix something that wasn't broken. If anything, he should have started a campaign to promote ryanpeikou one fan higher; I'd still be against it, but it would be far more reasonable.

But I fully understand. If my tile efficiency skills were so bad that I couldn't get a pinfu or ippatsu for the life of me, or felt like I wasn't winning enough hands, or if I preferred 3naki toitoi/hon-itsu/chin-itsu, and I really, really hated defense and watching other players carefully, while still trying to reason between my number of waits and possible scores while keeping in mind the merits and demerits of opening and concealing my hand, if I did hate all of that, sure I'd play Zung Jung. I'd miss mentanpin, though. It'd be pretty much dead; drowned in a sea of hands that will probably require less planning and more calling. But aren't we all.
Esh wrote:
Riichi grades the hands based on the difficulty of the situation or conditions in which they're made under.

I would sincerely like to believe this, but I've seen no evidence for it.
You're obviously not a very regular player. At least for riichi, but I'd think playing other styles would help you figure that one out, too.

You should tell Alan to pick better names, as well. Zung Jung doesn't even sound like mahjong; sounds like cheap soup from the local market. While I'm always in for soup, and I'm so poor I'm always glad to find cheap things, it sounds like the kind of soup you'd look at and say "...man, do I hate soup" before throwing it down the sink and buying a good piece of steak. I'm hungry.

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