EMA rules question

[hwmikemiranda]

My friends and I have been playing EMA riichi for a while, and the rules information we have from EMA leaves us with a few questions that we have not agreed upon. I'm hoping someone with knowledge of EMA rules can answer these for me.

Our questions are the following:

1. Can 7 pairs stack han? Such as one suit, one suit and honors, all honors, etc.
2. If you touch a tile from the wall, are you committed to drawing it?
3. Can you claim a furiten/sacred discard for a non-mahjong meld?
4. When can a kong be robbed? Only when it is first revealed, thus later it cannot be robbed?

Thank you!

[wavemotion]

Welcome to the forums, Ray! Saw your intro post - thanks for supporting the New User Introduction Thread.

I'm the least likely to answer this authoritatively. But others on the forums here will have accurate answers. I'll give you my understanding and I'll be prepared to be wrong.

1. Yes, 7 pairs can also yield other han points (all one suit would be valid but double run would not as it would change the hand from 7 pairs). The only restriction is that you can't have a Kong (and try to count them as 2 pairs) and your basic minipoints are fixed at 25. This seemed reasonably clear in the March, 2012 update of the EMA Riichi Ruleset (in case you are still using the older one).

2. As far as I know there is no penalty for touching a tile. I don't think you are required to draw it. But I tend to play friendly games so we wouldn't enforce such a rule unless the person was fondling it

3. Furiten/sacred discard only applies to calling Ron. If you draw the tile yourself (Tsumo) or you claim a tile (Chi/Pon/Kan) for a meld but aren't trying to go out with that tile, you're perfectly fine taking it.

4. My understanding is that you can only Rob the Kong when a player draws a tile and tries to add that tile so drawn to an exposed triplet to turn it into a quad. When they do, you can claim the tile for a win - the kong is not completed and no Kan Dora is flipped. This counts as a Ron. The only exception to this that a player may take a tile when a Concealed Kong is declared for the rare Thirteen Orphans hand. I've no idea why they have this exception.

Take all my answers with grains of salt and await confirmation!

Edit: To clarify point #1.

[Kyuu]

Everything else Wave said is confirmed, as they are part of the basic rules. The tile touching thing: that's a matter of formality.

2. As far as I know there is no penalty for touching a tile. I don't think you are required to draw it. But I tend to play friendly games so we wouldn't enforce such a rule unless the person was fondling it

This reminds me. A couple of years ago, I was out bike riding and came across this public place, where chess boards were literally painted on concrete tables. So, y'got people with chess clocks and chess sets out there. If you want to play, you wager a dollar and hope to beat the opponent. I lost 3 times. The neat thing there was: play with one hand only. Move pieces with one hand, and hit the clock with the same hand.

For casual -- no one really cares about these kinds of formalities.

But for EMA, I'm going to assume it is coded in there. Going through the EMA rules and doing a word search for "touch", the word finder isn't locating the word. So, I'm going to assume -- "No". I've never played in an EMA event, as I am in America. Nevertheless, it's something interesting to consider regarding the establishment of a more formal set of rules around here. Draw the tile from the wall -- you're committed to it. At least, this is my opinion.

The only time this could be an issue: when deciding to call on a discard. Otherwise, drawing from the wall is the default choice anyways.

[Trotskey]

1. Yes, 7 pairs can also yield other han points (all one suit, double run, etc).

Er... 7 pairs does not stack with double run(ippeikou) or ryanpeikou. A tile cannot be considered to be part of a pair/pon AND part of a chi. (interpreting 7 pairs as having ippeikou leaves you with an invalid hand anyway, 4 pairs and 2 chis). In the case of multiple valid interpretations, only one interpretation of a hand is scored, the higher scoring one. (such as the case with ryanpeikou)

[wavemotion]

1. Yes, 7 pairs can also yield other han points (all one suit, double run, etc).

Er... 7 pairs does not stack with double run(ippeikou) or ryanpeikou. A tile cannot be considered to be part of a pair/pon AND part of a chi. (interpreting 7 pairs as having ippeikou leaves you with an invalid hand anyway, 4 pairs and 2 chis). In the case of multiple valid interpretations, only one interpretation of a hand is scored, the higher scoring one. (such as the case with ryanpeikou)

Ah yes! Makes sense - I've corrected my point 1 above.

[Senechal]

Point 2: The Danes played with touch-play. Obviously I did not see this in the ruleset, but they made it clear that they played this way before the tournament. Pretty sure the Dutch did not play with touch-play.

Jenn has once said that drawing a tile is never a mistake, according to one of her fellow pros. Unless you're burning your last out, I learned to just let it ride if my arm extended far enough to touch the tile. After a while, you know whether to call or draw sooner. Awareness is naturally increased.

[Kyuu]

1. Yes, 7 pairs can also yield other han points (all one suit, double run, etc).

Er... 7 pairs does not stack with double run(ippeikou) or ryanpeikou. A tile cannot be considered to be part of a pair/pon AND part of a chi. (interpreting 7 pairs as having ippeikou leaves you with an invalid hand anyway, 4 pairs and 2 chis). In the case of multiple valid interpretations, only one interpretation of a hand is scored, the higher scoring one. (such as the case with ryanpeikou)

Oh wow. I misread that -- 'cause I was thinking of my Chii Toitsu Chinitsu (7 pairs flush) a couple weeks ago. To extend the answer, Chii Toitsu (7 pairs) CAN combine with other yaku (hand pattners) but only with Chinitsu and Honitsu (full and half-flush). There is a Chii Toitsu Tsuu Iisou hand (7 pairs all honors), but that's listed as a separate yakuman hand.

As for any other yaku (hand patterns), Chii Toitsu (7 pairs) cannot mix with anything else.

[Shirluban]

I think almost every thing is said, but as a referre I'll add my contribution.

Can 7 pairs stack han? Such as one suit, one suit and honors, all honors, etc.
Yes, Seven Pairs can stack with any yaku nor requiring any chii, pon or kan.
That is: riichi, ippatsu, double riichi, menzen tsumo, tanyao, haitei/houtai (last tile of the wall), Half Flush, All Terms and Honours, Full Flush (+ tenho/chiho/renho (winning on the initial deal) and All Honours, but these yaku are already scored yakuman, so you wouldn't have more points).

Seven Pairs does NOT stack with All Green and All Terminals, since they limit the hand to only six different tiles and Seven Pairs requires to have different pairs.
Seven Pairs does NOT stack with iipeikou (Pure Double Chow) nor ryanpeikou (Twice Pure Double Chow), since these yaku needs identical chii, not consecutive pairs.

If you touch a tile from the wall, are you committed to drawing it?
It's not explicitly forbidden to change your mind in this case, but it's bad manners and EMA rules forbids most mind-changing.
I doubt any one would force you to take the tile from the wall, unless you touched the face of the tile (it is possible to "thumb-read" the tiles).

Can you claim a furiten/sacred discard for a non-mahjong meld?
Yes. Furiten only applies for claiming a tile for winning (ron).
When you're furiten you still can claim tiles for anything else (chii, pon, kan), and win on a drown tile (tsumo).

When can a kong be robbed? Only when it is first revealed, thus later it cannot be robbed?
A kong can be robbed only for declaring a win and only when a player promote a melded pung into a kong. The robbery also have to be made immediately.
"Regular" melded kong and concealed kongs can not be robbed.

However, there is one exception: a concealed kong can be robbed for winning on Thirteen Orphans (only when the concealed kong is declared.)

[hwmikemiranda]

Awesome, everyone. Thank you very much for your help.

Another question that came up last night while playing:
If my discard is called for a meld, does it still count to me as furiten?
If I discard 5 crack and player to my left calls chii, if i later need it for my pair, must I draw a 5 crack and cannot call it from someone else's discard?

I think you've covered all of the other questions we had. This forum is a great resource. I'm glad it was pointed out to me.

[Iapetus]

Yes, called tiles do count for furiten. That's why the calls show who discarded the tile.