When in Reach... can I change tiles?

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wavemotion
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When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by wavemotion » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:50 pm

I'm still a little confused about what I can and cannot do when I've declared Reach. I know I can't change my waits - that much is clear. I know I can declare Kan for a concealed quad - drawing a replacement tile (yay Saki!). But what if I'm waiting for a tile and I have the following completed set in my hand:

4-crak 5-crak 6-crak

And I draw another 5-crak but the tile I draw is a delicious red color (Dora!). Can I keep it and toss the non-dora 5-crak (I haven't changed my waits)?

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by Shirluban » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:51 pm

When you have declared riichi, you can only:
- discard the tile you've drawn
- declare a concealed kan, IF you draw the 4th tile AND IF the three other tiles can only be considered to be a triplet (koutsu).
- win by ron
- win by tsumo


So, no, you can't switch a non-red five with a red five.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by wavemotion » Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:16 am

That seems pretty straightforward - thanks for the clarification!

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by Kyuu » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:54 am

Shirluban wrote:So, no, you can't switch a non-red five with a red five.
And that's because a hand's value would change after Riichi - which is clearly not allowed. Basically, be stuck with what y'have, as the privilege of increasing the hand value is forfeitted, except with ura-dora, kan-dora, and/or ippatsu.

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by umaso » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:53 am

Actually, the hand value does increase if you declare a kan. Also, you could theoretically update from a Suu Ankou Riichi to a Suu Kantsu :D

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by Kyuu » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:00 pm

umaso wrote:Actually, the hand value does increase if you declare a kan. Also, you could theoretically update from a Suu Ankou Riichi to a Suu Kantsu :D
Uh, no. That's the same. Going from one yakuman to another? And the only way for THAT to happen: Suu Ankou Tanki -> Suu Kantsu. There's no value change between the two yakuman, although Suu Kantsu occurs far less frequently; but the rules does not factor that.

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by Shirluban » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:22 pm

Well...
- an ankan gives more fu than an ankou
- having more dora/ura-dora indicators means the hand will potentially have more han
- you can turn a sanankou into sanankou + sankantsu
So, yes, the value of the hand definitively change.
the privilege of increasing the hand value is forfeitted, except with ...
I hardly see how it can be about increasing the hand value, since the first effect of declaring riichi is to increase the hand value, as you immediately gain an one-han yaku.
IMHO, it's more about changing the hand in general: if you put the drawn tile in your hand and discard another, it would be very hard to tell if you was tenpai at the time you declared riichi or if it was an illegal noten riichi, or if you changed your wait to escape from a furiten.
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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by Senechal » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:47 pm

Shirluban's right on this one, he mentionned that the group had to be viewed only as a closed set.

The conditions prior to that to prove that state is that it can't be part of:
* any potential hybrid wait (1112233 : 1-2-3-4 wait);
* or of anything that can be potentially interpreted as reversible sets (111222333 : sets or runs);
* or as part of the actual wait
..* (2223 : 1-3-4 wait, never can kan on the 2 post-riichi)
..* (2224 : 3-4 wait, never can kan on the 2 post-riichi)
..* (22234p 22345s 345m : 2p-5p-2m, but 2p denies sanshoku. you can't just kan 2p to force the 5p wait, because now, you just lost the 2m wait as well).


Hand value is irrelevant, only structure. Since the structure is the guarantee to the previous hand values or potential hand values, the lower limits do not change, but nothing stops the hand from increasing in value. I think everyone gets the idea.

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by xKime » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:41 pm

Also, never, EVER, let the tiles you draw after riichi touch the tiles from your actual hand. The only situation where this is viable is in broadcast matches were you must place the tile you draw on top of your tiles at hand. Otherwise, the tiles you draw after riichi can only be discarded, turned into a kan, or declared as winning tiles. Well, unless you want a chombo, in which case you can jump on top of the table and dance; that is a more fun way to do it.

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by wavemotion » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:10 pm

xKime wrote:Also, never, EVER, let the tiles you draw after riichi touch the tiles from your actual hand. The only situation where this is viable is in broadcast matches were you must place the tile you draw on top of your tiles at hand. Otherwise, the tiles you draw after riichi can only be discarded, turned into a kan, or declared as winning tiles. Well, unless you want a chombo, in which case you can jump on top of the table and dance; that is a more fun way to do it.
I always wonder how strict they are in the professional leagues. I've watched dozens of hours of pro video matches and am shocked at the number of times a tile falls over, the drawn tile spins on top of the wall and is shown to one or more other players (albeit briefly), or a drawn tile is dropped by accident, etc. Apparently in the EMA rules you are not in chombo (though you may end up with a dead hand instead) unless you expose more than five tiles from the wall, the dead wall, the player’s or opponents’ hands (EMA Riichi rules rev 2... 8-Jan-2012)

I don't see any reason to put a drawn tile on the wall when in Riichi (especially given the clarifications above), but I personally wouldn't really care if someone did it.

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by Shirluban » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:37 pm

The problem is: If you put the tile into your hand (like lining it up on the side), you can very easily discard another tile without being caught by the other players or referee.
So it must be forbidden to ensure there is no cheating.

Likewise, with or without riichi, if you put the tile into your hand and say "tsumo" you would not be able to claim any fu or yaku for the wait (or you may pay a chonbo if the table is very unfriendly).
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by Kyuu » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:07 pm

xKime wrote:Also, never, EVER, let the tiles you draw after riichi touch the tiles from your actual hand. The only situation where this is viable is in broadcast matches were you must place the tile you draw on top of your tiles at hand.
Watching them. It is a convention that even I picked up, where I view it as etiquette.

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by xKime » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:35 pm

Kyuu wrote:
xKime wrote:Also, never, EVER, let the tiles you draw after riichi touch the tiles from your actual hand. The only situation where this is viable is in broadcast matches were you must place the tile you draw on top of your tiles at hand.
Watching them. It is a convention that even I picked up, where I view it as etiquette.
For non-broadcasted matches, nevertheless, putting your drawn tile on top of your hand is just silly. You would either get some scary looks (like you are cheating or doing something dumb), or just laughed at. "Ya think ya playan' on TV or something, boy?"

At our local club we allow doing this, though, so that newer players can more easily follow whose turn it is (the guy with the extra tile hanging on top).

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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by Shirluban » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:25 pm

Kyuu wrote:
xKime wrote:Also, never, EVER, let the tiles you draw after riichi touch the tiles from your actual hand. The only situation where this is viable is in broadcast matches were you must place the tile you draw on top of your tiles at hand.
Watching them. It is a convention that even I picked up, where I view it as etiquette.
I've started to do the same at some point, but it turns out it only increase the risk of making your tiles fell on the table for every one to see them (both the drawn tile and the other hand's tiles) and slower your game.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: When in Reach... can I change tiles?

Post by gemma » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:13 am

Shirluban wrote:
Kyuu wrote:
xKime wrote:Also, never, EVER, let the tiles you draw after riichi touch the tiles from your actual hand. The only situation where this is viable is in broadcast matches were you must place the tile you draw on top of your tiles at hand.
Watching them. It is a convention that even I picked up, where I view it as etiquette.
I've started to do the same at some point, but it turns out it only increase the risk of making your tiles fell on the table for every one to see them (both the drawn tile and the other hand's tiles) and slower your game.
Especially if your tiles have magnets in them... Then I spend all of my time trying to stop them throwing themselves off each other.

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