Rule question: declared richi and red fives

[toni]

Hello,
I have a rule question : Is a player who has declared richi allowed to change a regular 5 out for a red 5 (dora) he has drawn?.
Since it only changes the value of the hand and not the waits it should follow the same rules as claiming a closed kan (quad) after declaring richi, which is allowed.
Unfortunately i haven't found any ruling regarding this.

Thanks in advance
Toni

[Iapetus]

It is not allowed.

[Scott Miller]

I'll try to answer this question, although up front I'll admit I have no resource I can quote as authority on this issue.

The promise with riichi is that any tile drawn, if not a winning tile, will be discarded… with the one exception being to allow the player to make a kong under certain restrictions. The change of waits restriction that you mention refers specifically to the conditions regarding the kong exception. So while it's true swapping a red five for a normal five won't change your waits… it also has nothing to do with making a kong, and so doesn't apply.

That being said… if you draw a red five… and it is not your winning tile, it must be discarded.

[toni]

thanks for the fast reply.
/thread

[Kyuu]

No. During riichi - the hand cannot be changed under all circumstances. In fact, it is improper to change your hand with the same exact tile. Theoretically, this case is not a big deal.

Basically, if what you drew is not a winning tile, you discard it. No questions.

[Ozball]

No. During riichi - the hand cannot be changed under all circumstances. In fact, it is improper to change your hand with the same exact tile. Theoretically, this case is not a big deal.

Basically, if what you drew is not a winning tile, you discard it. No questions.

As the others have all said above: Nope. The rule about not changing your waits is more in regards to the declaring a quad than your hand in general. So in short, your hand can not change, ie no tile may leave your hand if it was in it when you declared Reach. You can declare a Closed Quad if you have a Triple and you draw the fourth one ONLY if it doesn't change your possible waits.

[Shirluban]

You can declare a Closed Quad if you have a Triple and you draw the fourth one ONLY if it doesn't change your possible waits.

And ONLY if it doesn't change your hand structure.
If you have , you can kan the but not , nor because your bamboos can be either kōtsu or shuntsu and you're not allowed to change three shuntsu into two kōtsu and a kantsu.

[or2az]

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You are saying that because the hand "can" be set up as

(even though I dont see why anyone would do this when they are sitting on a monster hand),
that calling a kan with the 1,2, or 3 bam violates #2 below and is therefore not allowed. Is that correct?
You can only declare a concealed kan after declaring riichi if:
1. The tile adds to a concealed pon already in the hand.
2. Making the kan will not change the formation of the sets in the hand.
3. Making the kan will not change the tenpai pattern.
Also, if the hand ends up as a winner, am i correct in saying it would be a double yakuman Su Ankou Tanki Machi?
( That's 4 concealed pungs on a pair wait )
I read this article that said to attract new players to Japanese mahjong, that english translations on some items would be appreciated.
I know I don't have to do that with you.

[Referee]

That's correct. Change the pinzu to and suddenly the triple chi makes more sense.

[Gnom]

Also, if the hand ends up as a winner, am i correct in saying it would be a double yakuman Su Ankou Tanki Machi? ( That's 4 concealed pungs on a pair wait )

It would, although many places don't enforce this rule -- and not only in competitive settings, I remember at least three jansous that don't allow double yakuman. Two reasons: the huge points of course that make bankrupt an almost certainty (and the money lost even bigger, especially if there are direct payments for yakuman), but also the fact that if you DO get to tenpai the hand is easier to win, which is seen as a reward in itself, since you can ron (or in the case of a 13-sided wait kokushi you have a, well, 13-sided wait).

Some places do have some kind of out-game reward though: I saw one time a kind of jackpot that could be earned by getting a double yakuman, whose amount raised a bit every time a game was played in that jansou. At the time I went it was worth ¥50,000 so needless to say I'd happily give it a try even if it trashes my game. I also seem to remember Ikebukuro's no-rate joint allowed players who got a yakuman to have their pictures on the wall, those achieving a double being on top, which I guess is a good opportunity to boast