another gameplay question

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or2az
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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:53 am

When you put it like that, it makes complete sense, and I agree totally.
I had some other thoughts which helped to sway my decision:
I felt that 7 tiles spread out over 3 different tiles seemed more efficient to eke out a win than 6 tiles spread out over 2 different tiles. I also thought that opponents would be reluctant to toss a 5 crack knowing that 2 red ones are still unaccounted for, and if someone was holding a pair of 2 cracks, the wait would not now seem so good. Shouldn't one take things like this into consideration?

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:02 pm

First hand, tonpuusen, CPU level 6
Which is the best way to proceed?
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A) Riichi, discard the 8-dot and wait for the 2-crak (2 available)
....result: riichi, 7-pairs, possible tsumo
....min 3200, max 6400

B) Riichi, discard the 2-crak and wait for 1-crak red-dra (total 3 available)
....result: riichi, iipeiko, possible tsumo/yakuhai
....min 2600, max 8000

C) other (like maybe not calling riichi, or calling it later)

I went with B) during the game before doing these calculations, and ronned the red-dra for 5200 pts.
Assuming they are correct, and regardless of the way it turned out, was it the better choice?
It seems so.

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:03 pm

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A year and a half later, another gameplay question, wow, time flies.
Toi-Toi vs Honitsu. Does it make a difference at this point in the game?

I decided toi-toi when I ponged the :north and discarded the 1-crak .
Then drew the 6-crak and tossed the 2-crak .
Then drew another 2-crak and wondered if I made the right decision.

It was tonpussen and I had a big lead so it wasnt that big of a deal, but I'm curious. Would tossing both 7-dot have been better?

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Referee » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:15 am

Hindsight is 20/20, and sometimes, the tiles play trickster, and you got a second ryanwan (2c) right away.

That being said, I'm no expert by any stretch of imagination, so take my advice with as many salt as you need, but I think in that situation I would have gone with the honitsu, if only because it is more flexible. I'm not sure how much more flexible, but say, if you had discarded a pinzu on the last round, you'd have
2-crak 2-crak 5-crak 5-crak 6-crak 8-crak 8-crak , which if I did this right goes tenpai with any of
2-crak 4-crak 5-crak 7-crak 8-crak (12 tiles, accounting for the two 7m already discarded). If you're lucky enough, you get both yaku you're wondering about, for a mangan.

Now, maybe someone with more experience than I have can maybe show us the error in my though-train, or agree with me if they think I have found the right answer. :)

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:40 pm

It does seem that hindsight does make the Honitsu decision look better, but let's go back to when I actually had to make the choice. The discard after the pon of :north .
Honitsu decision: discard the first 7-dot
1-crak 2-crak 5-crak 5-crak 8-crak 8-crak 7-dot SSSNNN

Toi-Toi decision: discard the 1-crak
2-crak 5-crak 5-crak 8-crak 8-crak 7-dot 7-dot SSSNNN

Honitsu decision: 8 tiles to tenpai
3-crak 3-crak 3-crak 3-crak 5-crak 5-crak 8-crak 8-crak

Toi-Toi decision: 6 tiles to tenpai
5-crak 5-crak 8-crak 8-crak 7-dot 7-dot

Once you reach tenpai, both decisions require any of 4 tiles to win,
depending on how you got to tenpai.

Toi-Toi decision:
5-crak 5-crak 8-crak 8-crak or
5-crak 5-crak 7-dot 7-dot or
8-crak 8-crak 7-dot 7-dot

Honitsu decision:
5-crak 5-crak 8-crak 8-crak or
3-crak 3-crak 3-crak 3-crak

It's the last part of that I'm not too thrilled with.
4 of the 8 tiles that get you to tenpai will only let you win with one specific tile, the 3-crak , even though there are 4 of them out there.

Whatever conclusions can be drawn from all of this, I have no idea, but I haven't analyzed a hand in a while, and it was fun.
I just hope I did it correctly.
Thanks for your input. It inspired me.

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:51 pm

I was asked this one the other day after the game.

8-crak 8-crak 8-crak 3-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot 5-bam 5-bam 5-bam 7-bam 7-bam

After a turn of not calling riichi, an opponent discards 7-bam.

She asked if she should have called riichi, waiting for the 4-dot , or now, having the opportunity, pon the 7-bam , discard the 3-dot , and wait for open tanyao with a 5-dot 8-dot .

I added another possibility. Do neither. Continue to wait for a tile that would improve your hand, like the 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot 9-dot , and then call riichi.
I added that it also depends on the situation.
Do you need the points?
How many good tiles are still available?
How many tiles are left in the wall?

Keeping in mind that they are still learning strategy,
and it is in the heat of the game,
bottom line, should opening your hand for a better wait even be consldered as an alternative to calling riichi?

Can you add anything to all of this.

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Shirluban » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:03 am

Opening the hand would considerably decrease its value, limiting it to tanyao only.
While a closed hand has tanyao + riichi + maybe menzen tsumo + maybe ura dora. It's also possible to kan the 8m and 5s after riichi for more doras.
Without riichi, it's also possible to draw the last 7s and get sanankô! Then riichi!

Here, opening the hand doesn't secure any point (not dora / red five / yaku), doesn't get closer to tenpai, and only speed up the hand a little (6 instead of 4 live tiles).


Declaring riichi or not depends on the situation (I'll probably declare riichi anyway), but opening doesn't make sense.

As a guideline, halving the hand value should at least double the winning chances to be interesting (= save EV).
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:23 pm

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I was presented with this from one of my group for my opinion on what to go for and what to discard.
Would like yours also.
It is East 3 of East round only, she is ahead by 1700 pts, and will deal on next hand (maybe).
Her thoughts: aim for riichi or go for toi-toi (or 7 pairs)
And what to discard for each case.
What say you?

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Ignatius » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:14 am

Well, I'm no expert here. But if I were to choose, i'd to go for Riichi discarding 9-bam . Two 8-bam and 1 7-bam had been already discarded, so seems safe.

Also if I were to aim for Chiitoitsu/7 Pairs, I would have to discard at some point any of the Pin/Dots, be that the 3-dot , 4-dot or 5-dot. And so far almost no dots were discarded and we are in mid-game, so to me sounds more dangerous.

Still I consider myself just a not very good casual player. But that would be my choice.
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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Shirluban » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:49 am

Pretty much the same than Ignatius, but I might not riichi considering the lead is quite slim.

Going for toitoi / all pungs is quite the same than for chitoi / 7pairs, only going farther away from tenpai, so I won't advise it.

If the hand doesn't improves in a few turns, I will consider opening it with no yaku just to be tenpai.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:36 pm

Well, she did follow your advice, somewhat, and discarded the 9-bam .
Drew another 5-dot and tossed the other 9-bam .
Then someone discarded a 2-bam .
She got impatient and took it, tossing her 3-dot , trying for tenpai.
That left her with,
2-dot 2-dot 4-dot 5-dot 5-dot 1-bam 1-bam :north :north :north 2-bam 2-bam 2-bam
I wasn't sure if she should have done that but she did end up with toi-toi.
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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Fri May 10, 2019 10:56 pm

A few years ago, I was told by some of you that the day would come when I would be playing a much faster game to go along with all that strategy I accumulated.
Well, that day has come thank you, but every once in a while, I still have to stop and pause for that extra couple of seconds.
For instance;
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Here I decided to discard the 8-crak ..
What would you have done?

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Ignatius » Fri May 10, 2019 11:32 pm

or2az wrote:A few years ago, I was told by some of you that the day would come when I would be playing a much faster game to go along with all that strategy I accumulated.
Well, that day has come thank you, but every once in a while, I still have to stop and pause for that extra couple of seconds.
For instance;

php78gVfGPM.jpg
Here I decided to discard the 8-crak ..
What would you have done?
I would have done the same. :)
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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:21 pm

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WWYD? & why?
Choices: 2-dot 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot 6-dot 5-bam 6-bam 9-bam
Possible outcomes: toi-toi, iipeiko, chiitoitsu, riichi

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Ozball » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:56 am

I think I'd take Chitoitsu here and throw the 9-bam

As for why... Currently first, still early in the game so no need to get overly reckless. Also North's discards seems a bit fishy. They've got a long string of Tsumogiri's (draw and discard the same tile), and they held on to the West over the 7-dot and 6-dot. While it's more likely they're going for Honitsu or Chinitsu in Characters, I'd rather play it safer here while maximizing our chances of completing chitoi. 6-dot is also a viable option, as it's genbutsu (in discards) for North, but dealer seems be to building a Pinzu hand, so it might be dangerous on that side. Also 9-bam is genbutsu for dealer as well, making it safer to throw in general.
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