another gameplay question

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Ignatius » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:10 pm

In that case I'll keep it simple, and I would choose to win. Most of the time is better to claim a win, even if it's a low points win, than to get nothing.
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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:50 pm

This one is fairly simple but it happens every once in a while and really annoys me. The hand moves along uneventfully until with about 6 tiles left, I finally draw the tile that puts me in tenpai. I don't call riichi because there are hardly any tiles left, and then 2 tiles later, someone discards my winner and I can't call it because I DON'T HAVE ANY YAKU. I'm pissed. If I would have called riichi, I would have won the hand.

For example, I had just become tenpai waiting on the 3-dot 6-dot 1-bam . Didn't riichi. South then tosses the 3-dot . Can't claim it. Tough life!
(Note that East discarded the 3 dot two turns earlier, before I was tenpai, and even one before that)
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Now I ask you, If you do not already have a yaku in your hand, should you call riichi with very few tiles remaining (and risk the 1000pts), or, do you just hope that you can tsumo (CSD), and if you don't, just settle for the draw (like I did), and maybe get some points for being tenpai.

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Kyuu » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:34 am

or2az wrote:Now I ask you, If you do not already have a yaku in your hand, should you call riichi with very few tiles remaining (and risk the 1000pts), or, do you just hope that you can tsumo (CSD), and if you don't, just settle for the draw (like I did), and maybe get some points for being tenpai.
Your points and the availability of your tile waits will dictate whether you should (or not) call that riichi. While dead last, you have nothing to lose. If the game is tight where that 1000 pts may make the different between your placement and the guy below you -- then you don't. If your lead is large enough, then why bother. And so on, so forth.

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:58 pm

Understood. One must look at the whole picture in order to make a competent decision, points and availability of winning tiles (as you said), and I guess also at what point you are in the match. In the case above, the game was in East 2 of a hanchan and I was in 2nd with a little lead over 3rd but with lots of time left to catch the leader. No need to riichi and risk dealing into someones hand with just a few tiles left. I guess I already knew that. Just needed confirmation. Thanks.
( It's just so frustrating when that winning tile shows up and you can't take it but I guess that's what makes this game more exciting than the other varieties)

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by mrfeng » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:01 pm

Damaten is fine here since you can't account all 4-dot, I would suspect right player has the last 3-dot. Very few 2-bam 3-bam are accounted as well so 1 of the player definitely has your 1-bam .

Even if you do riichi and win this hand, it is only 1.3k. If you tenpai and reach a draw, you get 1k or 0. By not riichi-ing, you don't lose much at all actually. But when you riichi, it is detrimental not able to defend since your hand is of low value.

Losing that 1k point from riichi is hardly a point to consider.

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:14 pm

Agreed. In this case, riichi should not be considered. One quick observation, from your statement below, you were correct that one of the players had my 1-bam . It was South. East discarded the other one.
Also note that the 3-dot that South discarded WAS the last one. East discarded 2 of them and there is 1 in my hand. South also had discarded the last 6-dot so my wait was actually a dead one. (none available)
Damaten is fine here since you can't account all 4-dot, I would suspect right player has the last 3-dot. Very few 2-bam 3-bam are accounted as well so 1 of the player definitely has your 1-bam .

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:33 pm

Just had this nice hand and it made me curious about something. How much importance should one place on a red five?
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I saw two possibilities here.
I could toss the 5-dot and have a 3-dot edge wait for the win...or...I could kan the 1-dot and move one step back from tenpai and continue on.
It wasn't that I cared about the extra dora (had 3 already) but rather about the possibility of giving it to someone else.
I decided to make the kong and later on managed to draw a 4-dot. (obviously, no one was tossing me dots)
The hand ended well (baiman) as I was able to ron a 3-dot from West, probably because he was developing a flush of his own.
Ironically, I ended up winning the hand on the same tile that I would have needed had I tossed the red five in the first place.
So, what do you think would have been the better way to go here?
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Re: another gameplay question

Post by mrfeng » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:40 pm

The red 5-dot is emphasised on 3 important reasons:
1. To increase your hand by 1 han
2. To prevent your opponent from getting this 1 Han
3. To prevent your hand from revealing too much information. (Not able to utilize a red five shows a lot)

If you look at your situation now, you have ponned a dora 8-dot and in tenpai chinitsu which gives you a secured baiman (8 han). Do you have one of the 3 reasons to keep the red 5-dot ? Let's analyse.

1. You don't need to increase your hand by 1 han. Having an extra 1 han from aka 5-dot does not help you because the value of a 8 han is the same as that of 9 han.

2. Allowing any player to get this extra han for you will still lose to your hand in value. So it does not matter. Plus, His hand should be slowed down should he try to defend against your chinitsu. Even if is otherwise, you are still in advantage in terms of EV.

3. It does not matter whether you discard the red 5-dot or not because an experienced player can tell that you are doing chinitsu anyway. They will not discard any pinzu regardless the discard of your red 5-dot . An additional point on this is that, an amateur player might think that since you have discarded a red 5-dot , you are not doing chinitsu but actually just tanyao. Afterall, it is not THAT obvious you are chinitsu. You might be waiting for 2-crak 5-crak . This might cause them to discard pinzu to you since they thought that you have no more pinzu tiles left.

Hence, the answer is clear. Discard the red 5-dot .

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:39 pm

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A year ago, in my early stages of playing this game, I would have waited for a red-dra to be discarded, claimed it for my yaku, and then started calling everything for a yakuhai win....or.....I would have called everything to begin with and relied on atozuke for the win.
I would either be disappointed that I didn't get it, or with the amount of points I would get if I did. (or really pissed if I got ronned)
I tend to look at things differently now, hopefully, for the better, so in this case, I tossed the red-dra aiming for riichi pinfu and maybe ura dora.
I think it was a good choice but I sometimes wonder if it was the best one. Old habits die hard.
I didn't win this hand and P.S., I still get pissed if I get ronned.

This next one was a quicker decision (too quick). I tossed the 1-crak . Now even though I won this hand (riichi, ippatsu, pinfu, tanyao, dora 3), I wondered if there was a better discard choice. I did go one step back from tenpai to go for tanyao, which I can see now was a mistake. I also tossed a dora (the 5) but picked up an ura dora. What a mess. I should have just discarded that 6-crak that I drew to begin with. Like I said, old habits die hard.
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Re: another gameplay question

Post by mrfeng » Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:02 am

or2az wrote:
phpjHwrS3PM.jpg
A year ago, in my early stages of playing this game, I would have waited for a red-dra to be discarded, claimed it for my yaku, and then started calling everything for a yakuhai win....or.....I would have called everything to begin with and relied on atozuke for the win.
I would either be disappointed that I didn't get it, or with the amount of points I would get if I did. (or really pissed if I got ronned)
I tend to look at things differently now, hopefully, for the better, so in this case, I tossed the red-dra aiming for riichi pinfu and maybe ura dora.
I think it was a good choice but I sometimes wonder if it was the best one. Old habits die hard.
I didn't win this hand and P.S., I still get pissed if I get ronned.
Yea, you are right. I see many players at the bugboney tournament doing that but you never ever see any professional players doing that. Then again, we have another extreme case whereby there are players will ONLY pon on the 2nd copy. This is dependent on situations but some players just take it as a rule for themselves.

However, there is another theory in dealing with a pair of honours and especially yakuhai. In the modern days now, some players will forsake pinfu by keeping the pair of yakuhai. The difference in value is only half a han but in exchange, you will able to lock players who wish to pon your yakuhai. But They won't forsake pinfu + tanyao of course.

As for your hand, although your decision of aiming for a pinfu instead of relying on yakuhai is correct, I believe the correct discard is actually 4-bam. This way, you won't feel hurt if the 3rd copy of chun arrives. You can then discard 4-bam 5-bam or 6-crak 7-crak for a wider 1shanten and more expensive hand. There is no need to pon the chun, if people discard it, just discard the chun with them and go for pinfu.

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:33 am

I did consider tossing one of the 4-bam but since I had six elements in my hand (67 99 45 678 445 RR), one of them would have to go eventually, and since the dragons could never be included in a pinfu, and it was very early in the hand, why not get rid of them now, when it's probably still safe to do so.
Like you said, even if the 3rd one shows up, I don't have to pon it. Who knows, maybe a 6 and 7 bam will show up and then I could use the 4 as the pair, get rid of the 9 cracks, and add tanyao to the mix. Miracles do happen.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what exactly is "half a han"?

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Iapetus » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:52 pm

or2az wrote:I did consider tossing one of the 4-bam but since I had six elements in my hand (67 99 45 678 445 RR), one of them would have to go eventually, and since the dragons could never be included in a pinfu, and it was very early in the hand, why not get rid of them now, when it's probably still safe to do so.
Like you said, even if the 3rd one shows up, I don't have to pon it. Who knows, maybe a 6 and 7 bam will show up and then I could use the 4 as the pair, get rid of the 9 cracks, and add tanyao to the mix. Miracles do happen.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what exactly is "half a han"?
While pinfu scores 1 han, it also scores less fu, so it isn't as valuable as any other han is. For example, riichi tsumo (2 han) is 2000 points, riichi tsumo dora (3 han) is 4000 points but riichi tsumo pinfu (3 han) is only 2700 points.
or2az wrote:This next one was a quicker decision (too quick). I tossed the 1-crak . Now even though I won this hand (riichi, ippatsu, pinfu, tanyao, dora 3), I wondered if there was a better discard choice. I did go one step back from tenpai to go for tanyao, which I can see now was a mistake. I also tossed a dora (the 5) but picked up an ura dora. What a mess. I should have just discarded that 6-crak that I drew to begin with. Like I said, old habits die hard.
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How about 4p discard? You guarantee dora 3 with that, get tanyao unless you draw 7m/5p, and have a shot at iipeiko. With three 4s gone, sanshoku is unlikely and we would want to call 47s if possible.

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by mrfeng » Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:57 pm

or2az wrote:I did consider tossing one of the 4-bam but since I had six elements in my hand (67 99 45 678 445 RR), one of them would have to go eventually, and since the dragons could never be included in a pinfu, and it was very early in the hand, why not get rid of them now, when it's probably still safe to do so.
Like you said, even if the 3rd one shows up, I don't have to pon it. Who knows, maybe a 6 and 7 bam will show up and then I could use the 4 as the pair, get rid of the 9 cracks, and add tanyao to the mix. Miracles do happen.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what exactly is "half a han"?
As mentioned, there is no need to get rid of your chun until someone really discarded it. The alternative modern theory is to use the chun as the pair and riichi. About the point on tanyao, why bother fantasizing tanyao if your hand shape can be made worse? Your hand shape is perfect in this case. By considering 67s, you are putting yourself at risk of going for a kan 6s tanyao tenpai. Also, even if you get into your usual pinfu without tenpai, you will be tossing 4s. Why not toss the 4s now when it is probably still safe to do so? The 4s is more dangerous than chun by then.

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by or2az » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:31 pm

Why not toss the 4s now when it is probably still safe to do so? The 4s is more dangerous than chun by then
Understood, mrfeng. you threw my words right back at me. The 4s first, then the chun, maybe.
One last comment:
The alternative modern theory is to use the chun as the pair and riichi
although your decision of aiming for a pinfu instead of relying on yakuhai is correct
Since you cant do both of these at the same time, which is preferred?
If I go for pinfu, I can't use the chun as the pair, so I would have to get rid of them anyway.
How about 4p discard? You guarantee dora 3 with that, get tanyao unless you draw 7m/5p, and have a shot at iipeiko
Iapetus. Understood about the half a han, but in the above, you do mean pinfu instead of tanyao, correct?

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Re: another gameplay question

Post by Iapetus » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:40 pm

or2az wrote:
Iapetus. Understood about the half a han, but in the above, you do mean pinfu instead of tanyao, correct?
You get both pinfu and tanyao. Discard 4p -> Draw any of 58m 47s -> Discard 1m for tanyao pinfu. For open tanyao you can also call 58m 47s.

I mentioned only tanyao because it's an unique benefit of not discarding the 6m.

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