Guide to ranking up on tenhou

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saitym
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Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by saitym » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:33 pm

As you know might know, I play mahjong on tenhou and I would just like to give you a guide on tenhou.
Popular beliefs are that tenhou is heavily based on 'avoiding last'. It is true that avoiding fourth place is important but isn't it important anyway? and you actually don't need to think about avoiding last too much until you are 6th dan or above in my opnion.

There are four separate level 'taku' or table

ippan-taku - this is where you start out and as long as you play enough, you can evetually reach the next level table

jyou-taku - this is where some beginners or even long time players are held back. If you cannot reach the next level taku, and out of experience of playing here, I felt that players at this table lack these skills (in order of importance.)

1) betaori skills - when someone riichis, bail from the safest tile unless you are tenpai ( genbutsu->suji->onechance/kabe/tile that you have that are pairs or triplets) Very simple principle yet hard to get used to if you are used to pushing all hands.

2) riichi - people in this table i feel do not like to riichi too often, it is a sin!!! to not riichi pinfu dora 1 or 2. It has also been proven by data that pinfu only is better to riichi as well. The major one and major difference between advanced players and players at this table is that they tend to not riichi, hands that are kanchan waits or 'bad wait' (shanpon/tanki). hands with at least one dora and are less than mangan in value, you must riichi except for very particular circumstances.
What I tell myself is that you have to find a reason not to riichi and not a reason to riichi.

3) tile efficiency - this is a problem for many users advanced or beginners but this is something you have to learn out of experience from playing or reading sites that teach you this stuff. I might do a post on tile effeicency and the different strategies out there but that is all I can say for this. there is no easy way to improve tile efficiency.

4) naki (chi or pon)- people in this table like menzen a bit too much. naki skills are very difficult to improve because it is a balance between defense and speed + attack but there is a certain set of skill that you have to master in terms of naki which is atozuke back. I show you some examples

1-bam 2-bam 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot 9-dot 9-dot 4-crak 5-crak red-dra red-dra :west :north (dora 9-crak )
From this hand it is essential that you can chi- 3-bam if it is discarded by you kamicha. another example is this

2-bam 4-bam 6-bam 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 9-dot 9-dot 9-crak 9-crak red-dra red-dra :south (edited*) (dora 4-bam )
similarly you have to be able to chi- 3-bam 5-bam but pon also 9-crak 9-dot. It is without saying that you must pon red-dra from the first tile at all times and not the second.

The general principle is that if you can get rid or a gukei (bad wait) whether it is a kanchan or a third pair, if you have a yaku, you should do it. this is one of the main principles in modern mahjong. 
actual game example east 4 http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015041112gm-0 ... 6db27&tw=0

tokujyou-taku - this is where some advanced users are stuck. The 6dan slope as they call is very hard to climb in terms of points to get to 7th dan. if you can reach 5th -6th dan and stay there, you are a good player.
Things that players in this table are lacking are usually oshihiki(when to push and when to bail). in jyoutaku, you can win consistently or markedly improve your results by following the principle of betaori unless your tenpai but in this taku, similar principles apply but you have to also know when to push or bail when you are tenpai or iishanten. This is very hard to master and differs from player to player so there is no single correct answer. From this point on you must improve and try to perfect the categories in jyou-taku as well as oshihiki. Another important category is tezukuri or making your hand. It is important to be able to construct a hand that when tenpai is either a high scoring hand or has a good wait as much as possible. When I said you should riichi even with a bad wait when tenpai most of the time, advanced user avoid this problem constructing a hand in such a way to maximize the chance of getting a good wait when tenpai. Avanced strategies such as tenpai-hazushi or not taking tenpai can be useful but should only be used in particular circumstances.

houou-taku- the highest level table in internet mahjong, I have reached it and I've yet to really play in it so I can't comment on what it's like yet but if you can get here, you can call your self a solid player( I think)
Last edited by saitym on Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:13 am, edited 5 times in total.

Krabman
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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by Krabman » Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:19 pm

I like this topic already! What exactly will be posted here?

I've been stuck at 2 Dan for over a year now. My main problem is poor discipline and repeating the same silly mistakes that often ruin a whole Hanchan for me.

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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by saitym » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:24 pm

If people were interested, i was going to go through the each categories or principle in more detail and how to do them etc.

As I got a reply, I guess I will update with more posts soon!! thanks for the reply!!

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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by Krabman » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:43 pm

Well, I'm very much interested! How about posting print screens and maybe even Tenhou logs up for discussion? Like they do on Osamuko FB Group?

BTW: do you belong to Osamuko Mahjong group?

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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by saitym » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:16 pm

I'll look at any haifu posted in the 'haifu (牌譜) analysis' post if you want. Also I'm not currently part of the Osamuko group. I could put up a haifu for discussion but I'm generally at the level where I can spot my mistakes by myself so I don't usually put up haifu for analysis
Last edited by saitym on Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by saitym » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:52 pm

1) Begginers guide to defense Part 1

Introduction
I have seen alot of beginners in mahjong in tenhou, and what I see in common is the high 放銃率 or percentage of rounds that you deal in to a hand(or deal in rate). high deal in rate has the greatest effect to you average position or 平均順位.

Just as an example, this is my stats in jyoutaku in two seperate accounts that i have
First account
対戦数 116回
平均順位 2.120位
1位率 38.79%
2位率 26.72%
3位率 18.10%
4位率 16.37%
和了率 26.55%
放銃率 11.50%
立直率 18.77%
副露率 42.12%

Second account
対戦数 185回
平均順位 2.351位
1位率 29.72%
2位率 24.86%
3位率 25.94%
4位率 19.45%
和了率 24.76%
放銃率 11.81%
立直率 17.95%
副露率 38.99%

Although There is an element of luck in the average position and the number of times you win ( 和了率)(quite a big variation due to low number of hanchans played), you can see that 放銃率 stays pretty much similar. This is because there is less an element of luck in lowering this particular stat but skill.
Beginners I tend to find usually have high deal in rates 放銃率 of around +15% which is the primary reason , they do not get good results. Just as a reference, it is generally said that if you have 和了率 minus 放銃率 which is greater than 10%, it is good.

Terminology
Before actually going into the topic there are some terminology you have to know mainly suji and musuji

Sujis are the other wait of a certain tile when you consider a double sided wait, so for example suji of 5-crak is both 2-crak and 8-crak because you can have 2-crak 5-crak wait or 5-crak 8-crak double sided wait. Another example is suji of 4-dot is 1-dot and 7-dot because you can have either 1-dot 4-dot double sided wait or a 4-dot 7-dot double sided wait. Sujis are an important consideration in defense because of furiten. When a person riichi's, that person during riichi must win when the winning tile comes out, and if he does not, he becomes furiten meaning he cannot win off other players even if his winning tile comes out again (and can only win off tsumo). When predicting the wait of the person who riichis, you assume a double sided wait as around 60% of all riichi waits are double sided waits and therefore if the person who riichis does discards a 5-crak or some other player discards a 5-crak and the person who is riiching does not ron, you deem the suji of 5-crak , 2-crak and 8-crak safer (because it cannot be hit by a double sided wait due to furiten) than musuji. Musuji are tiles that is not yet a suji tile or a tile which the suji of it has still not passed against the riichi

The other type of sujis that you should know are double musuji, katasuji , nakasuji(or double suji). Double musuji are tiles with the number 4,5 and 6. It is considered a double musuji because these tiles can be hit by two variations of a double sided wait. eg. 5-crak can be hit by both 2-crak 5-crak and 5-crak 8-crak double sided wait whilst a normal musuji tile like 8-dot can only be hit by only one variation of double sided wait 5-dot 8-dot double sided wait. katasuji (literally only one side suji) is when 2-crak is discarded against a riichi and it goes through, 5-crak is considered a katasuji as 2-crak 5-crak double sided wait is now not possible but 5-crak 8-crak is still possible (so only one side has been taken out of consideration). Nakasuji (literaly inside suji) you might have guessed is when both for example 2-crak and 8-crak has gone through against riichi so 5-crak cannot hit by any variation of a double sided wait. another example is if 1-dot 7-dot goes through 4-dot is nakasuji.

Finally genbutsu tiles are the actual tiles that have gone through against a riichi. these tiles cannot be ronned due to furiten and therefore are completely safe against the guy who has riichied

Principles of Betaori
This certain skill called betaori is the most important tool in lowering your deal in rate. It means to throw away any chance of you winning your hand and just concentrate on not dealing into the opponent.
In jyou-taku (1st dan -3rd dan), the easiest rule you can follow to drastically lower your deal in rate and therefore hopefully increasing your average final position is to Betaori if anyone riichis if you are NOT TENPAI
The most important point is that no matter how close you are to tenpai, IF YOU ARE NOT TENPAI, you should not push but should betaori. (SECOND TIME)

However there are exceptions to this rule(but I'll keep it simple)
1) you are iishanten (with a hand you are likely to push once tenpai because you deem it good enough ), you can push sujis but no musuji until tenpai(explained in more detail in oshihiki post)
2) Once tenpai, you can push a musuji (but generally should not push double musuji(explained later) unless very early on or hand is high scoring or/and have a good wait)
3)Your are iishanten and if you have no or not enough (less than 2 or 3) actual safe tiles or suji tiles that you can bail and you deem that by bailing you are actually increasing your chance of dealing in, only then you can push a musuji ( you will not deal in if you win your hand, common situation with open hands) but once you have enough safe tile, immediately shift to betaori!

Do not however push any suji's before genbutsu if you are ryanshanten (two tile away from tenpai) VERY IMPORTANT



How to Betaori
I am now going to give you a ranking for how safe a tile is against a riichi in order of safety

Completely safe - genbutsu tile
Class A - jihai that you can see three of
Class B - suji 1 and 9
Class C - jihai that you can see two of>jihai that you can see one of> nakasuji 4,5,6,
Class D - suji 2,8 > suji 3,7
Class E - musuji 1,9, > katasuji 5> musuji 28>katasuji 64 >musuji 37
Class F - double musuji 456

The way in which you Betaori is simple, you just throw away the tiles that you have in order of safety using this ranking.
jihais that are not yakuhai should be thrown first if same danger level due to points difference in case you get ronned
You should throw musuji 19 first then 28 then 37.

It is generally considered that from a menzen hand, if you have 3 genbutsu or suji tiles that are safeish, you can successfully betaori and avoid dealing in and therefore if someone riichis first and you have three safeish tiles you should betaori if you are not tenpai

I have put extreme emphasis on tenpai, but if you are tenpai, generally you can push unless it's a double musuji late on in the game (past 12th discard) but this will be explained in the oshihiki section so for now there is no problem in pushing any tile once you are tenpai, or you can bail whenever you feel like from tenpai using the safe tile ranking.

If you follow the rules and the order of safe tile discard you should be able to drastically lower you deal in rate to around at least less than 13% and be on the way to tokujyou (if you play tenhou)

Other Consideration

one chance - this is when three of a certain tile can be seen from the discard + your hand and you assume that the tile outside of that tile is safer because the chance of that tile you see three of has less chance of being in the hand of the guy who riichied and so cannot be used to form a double sided wait to ron you. This is better explained with examples. lets say someone riichied and you see 3 6-crak. You assume 7-crak 8-crak are safer because to form a double sided wait to ron you on 7-crak 8-crak , you must use the 6-crak in the form of either 5-crak 6-crak and 6-crak 7-crak respectively, but because you already see threem you deem unlikely that the person who riichied has the 6-crak tile in his hand and therefore you assume that 7-crak 8-crak are safer than normal musuji tiles.
These rank a bit safer than their respective musuji tile if there was no onechance if it is within around the 8th discard but are generally more danjerous than suji tiles (so somewhere between Class E and D )

Kabe or wall - upgrade to one chance where you can see 4 of a certain tile so you are sure that the guy who riichied cannot form a double sided wait with the tile. eg 4 8-crak seen then 9-crak cannot be ronned by a double sided wait so it is safer than musuji tiles. Treat these as the same danjer ranking as the suji tiles of the respective number (1,9 = Class B, other =Class D)

Soku hikkake - this is when the suji of the riichi tile becomes more danjerous than normal suji tiles. This is because if you have 1-crak 3-crak 5-crak and you are tenpai, you riichi with the riichi tile as the 5-crak with a 2-crak wait. This is called a hikkake riichi. similarly if you have 4-bam 6-bam 8-bam , your riichi on the 4-bam to get a 7-bam wait. This is the reason why riichi tile's suji becomes slightly more danjerous than normal. However These suji's are still generally safer than musuji tiles.

Advanced techniques when desperate for safe tile
There will be many moments when your hand is just not good enough to push yet you have no safe tile. Even in these circumstances there is an order in which you should throw the tiles. I ranked the musuji tiles as 19>28>37 but this is only when you have equal number of these tiles in your hand. If you have only one 1,9, one 2,8 but three 3,7, you should actually throw the three 3,7 just because if the first one goes through you have another two tiles that are safe against the riichi.
eg 1-bam 2-bam 3-bam 5-bam 6-bam 3-dot 5-dot 8-dot 8-dot 8-dot 3-crak 5-crak 9-crak , from this hand if there are no suji or genbutsu tile, you should throw the 8-dot . similar rules or principle apply to suji tiles of the same danger rank

Defence against open hands (general)
This deviates from the Betaori topic and instead will consider defending against open hands.

The most simple rule is, unless you can clearly see or assume that the hand is expensive, you can ignore any naki or open hand and just push whatever tile.

ie let's say the dora is 5-bam and oya has ponned and chiied respectively in this order 4-dot 4-dot 4-dot and 4-crak 5-crak-red 6-crak , you can see that the oya is highly likely to have souzu in his hands and can easily use the 5-bam and the value of his hand will be 5800 which is expensive. even worse if he is using the 5-bam-red, it will be 11600. In these circumstances where you can see that a player is close to tenpai and has a very possible expensive hand and your hand is not good eneough to push, you should bail. similar circumstance occur when you see a dora yakuhai pon, you should try to bail against these hands as soon as this happens unless you have a very good hand

Defence against open hands (special cases)

1) defence against yaku back or atozuke

Lets say you have this particular hand in the 4th discard
2-bam 4-bam 4-bam 6-bam 7-bam 4-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot 1-crak 1-crak 3-crak 7-crak tsumo red-dra (dora 2-bam)


toimen who is in the south seat has chiied 2-crak 1-crak 3-crak in the east round and already there are :east green-dra white-dra :south out and so if he has a yakuhai pair, it probably is the red-dra that you have!

The discard you should make however is red-dra in this case. The act of not throwing the red-dra is called shibori, but this act is only disadvantageous to you because you lose one tile by keeping the red-dra and the longer you keep it, the more likely you are going to be ronned on the red-dra at the time of the disacard. The best solution is to ignore toimen and allow him to pon it if he can. The end result might be that he pons or maybe he doesn't but the end result for you is that you are likely to win your hand more by doing this by a slight amount. This is the key point, be selfish and increase the chance of you winning your hand at the cost of others in most cases.

2)Defence against iishokute of flush hands

Similar principles apply to in this case also, If your hand is good enough, you should throw any jihai or yakuhai against the player who is going for iishokute in the expense of others. exception is when you think the tile is going to be ronned at the discard rather than ponned.
The general rule for begginers is that you should assume tenpai or iishanten when if a player is going for let's say a manzu flush and manzu tile comes out. if jihai tile comes out, and the jihai is alive, (there less than two in the discard) you can also consider the player close to tenpai. From this point on unless you have a very good hand and your iishanten, you should generally not push manzu or jihai tiles which are still alive.


Thanks for reading ( and sorry for grammer mistake if any) will clarify and edit any explations or details if requested
Last edited by saitym on Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:23 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by mrfeng » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:37 pm

saitym wrote:
4) naki (chi or pon)- people in this table like menzen a bit too much. naki skills are very difficult to improve because it is a balance between defense and speed + attack but there is a certain set of skill that you have to master in terms of naki which is atozuke back. I show you some examples

1-bam 2-bam 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot 9-dot 9-dot 4-crak 5-crak red-dra red-dra :west :north
From this hand it is essential that you can chi- 3-bam if it is discarded by you kamicha. another example is this

2-bam 4-bam 6-bam 5-dot 6-dot 9-dot 9-dot 9-crak 9-crak red-dra red-dra :south :north
similarly you have to be able to chi- 3-bam 5-bam but pon also 9-crak 9-dot. It is without saying that you must pon red-dra from the first tile at all times and not the second.

The general principle is that if you can get rid or a gukei (bad wait) whether it is a kanchan or a third pair, if you have a yaku, you should do it. this is one of the main principles in modern mahjong.
Sorry I don't mean to be rude but do you really belong to houhou? I find it hard to believe that a houhou player suggest the above.

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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by saitym » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:53 pm

mrfeng wrote:
saitym wrote:
4) naki (chi or pon)- people in this table like menzen a bit too much. naki skills are very difficult to improve because it is a balance between defense and speed + attack but there is a certain set of skill that you have to master in terms of naki which is atozuke back. I show you some examples

1-bam 2-bam 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot 9-dot 9-dot 4-crak 5-crak red-dra red-dra :west :north
From this hand it is essential that you can chi- 3-bam if it is discarded by you kamicha. another example is this

2-bam 4-bam 6-bam 5-dot 6-dot 9-dot 9-dot 9-crak 9-crak red-dra red-dra :south :north
similarly you have to be able to chi- 3-bam 5-bam but pon also 9-crak 9-dot. It is without saying that you must pon red-dra from the first tile at all times and not the second.

The general principle is that if you can get rid or a gukei (bad wait) whether it is a kanchan or a third pair, if you have a yaku, you should do it. this is one of the main principles in modern mahjong.
Sorry I don't mean to be rude but do you really belong to houhou? I find it hard to believe that a houhou player suggest the above.


Yes, this is the reaction i was expecting and this is why beginners are so reluctant in doing this kind of naki. This is considered tetsu naki (you have to chi or pon, ) from most advanced users in modern mahjong. if you want to rank up on tehou it is an essential skill but i'll get to that later in the post for naki. You questioning this gets me to think that your 副露率 or how often you chi or pon is below 28%. I might be wrong but you keeping menzen too often might be another reason why you can't win as often. Also I did say I have't yet played too much in houou so I don't consider myself a solid houou player but I consider my self a level above tokujyou
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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by mrfeng » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:19 pm

I'm at 30%

I'm questioning because the example you cited, was a very bad example for a good atozuke.

And I believe, style plays a huge role. I've seen a 7dan with a high riichi rate.

You shouldn't preach as though as it is the very correct thing to do with such an example. Especially you saying that not playing accordingly to your naki style is beginners.

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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by saitym » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:10 pm

It is considered the very correct thing to do, 30% is very low for jyoutaku (because jyoutaku is quite slow at reaching tenpai, it is actually very advantageous to have a high naki rate, even up to +40), and unless you are very menzen which is very hard to master (and I don't reccomend you doing so and this is one of the reasons I'm doing this post, to change people's ideas about naki in general), you should try to use pon or chi- in the example I used. Even a menzen style guy would probably chi or pon the examples I used because these particular hands are hard to riichi (hard to tenpai keeping menzen) and much quicker to win by chi or ponning. I have only used examples which are generally 100% correct to chi- or pon.(example 1 is actually unquestionable) This is because you have a generally well rounded hand, one double sided mentsu and you have enough ta-tsu or (ターツ).

if the example was lets say 2-bam 4-bam 6-bam 4-dot 6-dot 9-dot 9-dot 9-crak 9-crak red-dra red-dra :north :west , it would be alright to not chi or pon for atozuke if you have no dora just because it's an awful hand but the hand I showed you is very likely to have a good wait at tenpai 3-crak 6-crak or 4-dot 7-dot and it's quick.

just as a reference, these are the tenhoui or the highest ranked tenhou players stats

すずめクレイジー/ ASAPIN / コーラ下さい/ タケオしゃん / (≧▽≦) / 太くないお / 独歩
立直率 13.72% / 17.00% / 14.58% / 14.26% / 17.12% / 17.79% / 15.67%
副露率 30.68% / 36.24% / 37.52% / 33.42% / 40.50% / 37.50% / 34.78%
放銃率 10.54% / 12.21% / 12.55% / 11.53% / 11.38% / 11.42% / 13.14%
和了率 20.67% / 22.16% / 22.37% / 21.13% / 22.01% / 22.27% / 22.18%

The suprising thing about this stat is that being good at menzen style doesn't actually mean high riichi(立直率) rate but very low deal in rate(放銃率) ie すずめクレイジー

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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by Ignatius » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:26 pm

Just to help reading that table...

立直率 Riichi rate.

副露率 Calling rate.

放銃率 Deal in rate.

和了率 Winning rate.
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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by mrfeng » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:44 pm

saitym wrote:It is considered the very correct thing to do, 30% is very low for jyoutaku (because jyoutaku is quite slow at reaching tenpai, it is actually very advantageous to have a high naki rate, even up to +40), and unless you are very menzen which is very hard to master (and I don't reccomend you doing so and this is one of the reasons I'm doing this post, to change people's ideas about naki in general), you should try to use pon or chi- in the example I used. Even a menzen style guy would probably chi or pon the examples I used because these particular hands are hard to riichi (hard to tenpai keeping menzen) and much quicker to win by chi or ponning. I have only used examples which are generally 100% correct to chi- or pon.(example 1 is actually unquestionable) This is because you have a generally well rounded hand, one double sided mentsu and you have enough ta-tsu or (ターツ).

if the example was lets say 2-bam 4-bam 6-bam 4-dot 6-dot 9-dot 9-dot 9-crak 9-crak red-dra red-dra :north :west , it would be alright to not chi or pon for atozuke if you have no dora just because it's an awful hand but the hand I showed you is very likely to have a good wait at tenpai 3-crak 6-crak or 4-dot 7-dot and it's quick.

just as a reference, these are the tenhoui or the highest ranked tenhou players stats

すずめクレイジー/ ASAPIN / コーラ下さい/ タケオしゃん / (≧▽≦) / 太くないお / 独歩
立直率 13.72% / 17.00% / 14.58% / 14.26% / 17.12% / 17.79% / 15.67%
副露率 30.68% / 36.24% / 37.52% / 33.42% / 40.50% / 37.50% / 34.78%
放銃率 10.54% / 12.21% / 12.55% / 11.53% / 11.38% / 11.42% / 13.14%
和了率 20.67% / 22.16% / 22.37% / 21.13% / 22.01% / 22.27% / 22.18%

The suprising thing about this stat is that being good at menzen style doesn't actually mean high riichi(立直率) rate but very low deal in rate(放銃率) ie すずめクレイジー
Please do not assume I'm joukyuu player. Thank you.

It is pointless to rush a 1k atozuke hand with possible furiten at a shanpon wait of yakuhai and yaochuhai. The reason why I say your example is bad is because there is no mention of what is the dora. Also, the 1st example says to meld 123s which tells even idiots that you are aiming for atozuke. Everybody will know which yakuhai you are going for if most of them are out in the 1st row of discards. You can easily be a sitting duck without knowing. It is low value, risky way with no backup plan kind of playing. Meld 234s is better since nobody will still mark you for yakuhai as they will mark tanyao first.

There is not need to force a win from every single hand especially when it is of low value and bad shape. Controlling your opponents is an alternative.

As much as I wish to respect you as a 7dan, please stop making assumptions and stereotypes and be aware that the way you teach this naki style can easily cultivated into a bad habit of some players which i've come across in many beginners.

saitym
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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by saitym » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:53 pm

mrfeng wrote:
saitym wrote:It is considered the very correct thing to do, 30% is very low for jyoutaku (because jyoutaku is quite slow at reaching tenpai, it is actually very advantageous to have a high naki rate, even up to +40), and unless you are very menzen which is very hard to master (and I don't reccomend you doing so and this is one of the reasons I'm doing this post, to change people's ideas about naki in general), you should try to use pon or chi- in the example I used. Even a menzen style guy would probably chi or pon the examples I used because these particular hands are hard to riichi (hard to tenpai keeping menzen) and much quicker to win by chi or ponning. I have only used examples which are generally 100% correct to chi- or pon.(example 1 is actually unquestionable) This is because you have a generally well rounded hand, one double sided mentsu and you have enough ta-tsu or (ターツ).

if the example was lets say 2-bam 4-bam 6-bam 4-dot 6-dot 9-dot 9-dot 9-crak 9-crak red-dra red-dra :north :west , it would be alright to not chi or pon for atozuke if you have no dora just because it's an awful hand but the hand I showed you is very likely to have a good wait at tenpai 3-crak 6-crak or 4-dot 7-dot and it's quick.

just as a reference, these are the tenhoui or the highest ranked tenhou players stats

すずめクレイジー/ ASAPIN / コーラ下さい/ タケオしゃん / (≧▽≦) / 太くないお / 独歩
立直率 13.72% / 17.00% / 14.58% / 14.26% / 17.12% / 17.79% / 15.67%
副露率 30.68% / 36.24% / 37.52% / 33.42% / 40.50% / 37.50% / 34.78%
放銃率 10.54% / 12.21% / 12.55% / 11.53% / 11.38% / 11.42% / 13.14%
和了率 20.67% / 22.16% / 22.37% / 21.13% / 22.01% / 22.27% / 22.18%

The suprising thing about this stat is that being good at menzen style doesn't actually mean high riichi(立直率) rate but very low deal in rate(放銃率) ie すずめクレイジー
Please do not assume I'm joukyuu player. Thank you.

It is pointless to rush a 1k atozuke hand with possible furiten at a shanpon wait of yakuhai and yaochuhai. The reason why I say your example is bad is because there is no mention of what is the dora. Also, the 1st example says to meld 123s which tells even idiots that you are aiming for atozuke. Everybody will know which yakuhai you are going for if most of them are out in the 1st row of discards. You can easily be a sitting duck without knowing. It is low value, risky way with no backup plan kind of playing. Meld 234s is better since nobody will still mark you for yakuhai as they will mark tanyao first.

There is not need to force a win from every single hand especially when it is of low value and bad shape. Controlling your opponents is an alternative.

As much as I wish to respect you as a 7dan, please stop making assumptions and stereotypes and be aware that the way you teach this naki style can easily cultivated into a bad habit of some players which i've come across in many beginners.
You actually don't seem to understand, it actually doesn't matter that they know you are atozuke or not, and it actually doesn't matter if you have a chance of furiten. I also didn't put the dora in because it doesn't matter how many dora you have, The only thing that matters is that if you don' chi or pon the tiles i stated, you are drasticaly lowering you chance of winning. This is the main point im trying to get across. in terms of defense you have the chun pair anyway.Even if the red-dra was dora, it is generally considered a definite chi or pon no matter how obvious it is that it is an atozuke. My philosophy or idea don't come from solely me but from other top players who are better than me as well. The only thing I should of stated was how many turns or discards in, it is for the second one which should be fairly early on preferably if you have no dora and you are san-shanten but that was just an introductory post in all honesty(*I've edited it a bit to ryan shanten to make it more favoured for a chi or pon ). The emphasis on trying to win every hand is actually important and essential because your expected points gain or loss if you don't win you hand is -1500 points. by winning a 1000 points, your actually creating a average point differential of 2500 points, compared to when you don't win your hand. Also sorry for the jyoutaku comment, i actually thought i was talking to the guy who replied first, didn't really check the account name.

saitym
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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by saitym » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:15 pm

Beginners guide to riichi (This part comes heavily from a certain strategy book, gendai maajyan gijyutsuron)

Introduction

The rules are simple, if you tenpai while menzen or closed, you should riichi straight away.

However there are severeal exception to this rule and the exceptions are

Exception 1) by not riiching or by going for dama, the merit of the additional chance of you winning the hand outweighs the merit of the increase in your hand value by riiching. ie you already have a high scoring hand/ you are in oorasu and you only need 1000 points come first and not 2000 points

Exception 2) by riiching, you are increasing your chance of dealing in which is not compensated by the increase in your hand value

Exception 3) there are alot of tiles that can give you a better wait or hand value than you currently have ( usually more than 9 tiles) (becomes less viable as you get closer to late game)

Hand by hand analysis
I will now go through what hands you should riichi and what hand you should dama (very simply) from riichi only hands to mangan hands without riichi ( riichi hands without pinfu are 40fu, and riichi hands with pinfu are 30fu. fan includes the additional fan gained by riichi but not tsumo) early game = 1-6 discard, mid game = 6-12 discard, late game = 12-18 discard


40fu 1fan - you should riichi all waits except for kanchan 4,5 or 6 waits (due to exception 2) unless you can follow exception 3. My personal general rule is if it's a double sided wait you should riichi at all times but if it's a kanchan wait, you should not riichi late mid to late game.

30fu 2fan - riichi all without exception

40fu 2fan - riichi all (even kanchan 4,5 and 6 unless it follows exception 3)

30fu 3 fan - riichi all without exception

40fu 3 fan (no yaku)- riichi all ( unless it's very early game (1-3) and you have exception 3)

40fu 3 fan (yaku ari) - If you have a double sided wait, early game - you should riichi, mid game - doesn't matter too much(slightly riichi favoured), late game -dama
if you have a gukei ( or a bad) wait - general rule is dama at all stages

30fu 4fan - riichi all

40fu 4fan - same as ( 40fu 3fan category)

30fu 5fan - early game riichi (unless it follows exception 1) , mid game- either or , late game - dama

Special circumstances

Out of the three exceptions, Exception 3 is the one that is the hardest to understand and consider as it is taking into account the merit of riiching early with a bad wait, or riiching slightly late with a good wait or a hand with higher value.

Exception 3
Rule 1 - pinfu or not

4-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 9-dot 2-crak 3-crak 4-crak 5-crak-red 1-bam 1-bam 1-bam 2-bam 2-bam (dora :north ) riichi 2-crak

4-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 9-dot 2-crak 3-crak 4-crak 5-crak-red 2-bam 2-bam 7-bam 8-bam 9-bam (dora :north ) discard 9-dot

Two similar hands but two different answers, the main difference is when you get a double sided wait , one gives you pinfu and the other one doesn't. If it gives you pinfu and have at least 8 tiles (one less than 9 but compensated by the increase in hand value by pinfu) that give you double sided waits when you don't take tenpai, it is more advantageous to do so


Rule 2 -2 strong isolated tile

1-bam 2-bam 3-bam 9-bam 9-bam 3-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot 5-crak-red 7-crak 8-crak 9-crak (dora 9-crak ) discard 3-dot

in this case the if you don't take tenpai by discarding the 3-dot, you have a strong shape with the pinzu 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot , and a isolated tile 5-crak-red that increase your hand value. In tese circumstances,it is judged that it is more advantageous to not take tenpai. if the pinzu was 2-dot 4-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot , it will be more riichi favoured as you no longer have the 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot shape

Another example

6-bam 7-bam 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot 7-dot 8-dot :east white-dra white-dra (dora 9-crak ) riichi :east

6-bam 7-bam 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot 7-dot 8-dot 9-dot white-dra white-dra ( dora 9-crak ) discard 6-bam

The difference here is the difference in the isolated tile :east and 6-dot . by having the 6-dot , you create a 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 7-dot shape which you can tenpai off either 4-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot white-dra , to get an extra 3fan. with :east there is not enough tiles, just :east itself and white-dra to get that extra 3 fan and therefore (because it will take too long before getting tenpai again) it is riichi.


Rule 3 - Exception 2+3

1-bam 2-bam 3-bam 3-bam 4-bam 5-bam 6-bam 6-bam 6-dot 6-dot 3-crak 4-crak 5-crak 7-crak (dora 2-bam ) discard 7-crak

You can riichi on a shanpon 6-bam and 6-dot wait but 4,5,6 waits are extremely bad. in this case, even though you have no yaku, you have alot of tiles that give you either an increase in hand value ( 1-bam 2-bam 4-bam 5-bam 7-bam 5-dot 7-dot , and tsumo on 6-dot 6-bam ) (tanyao, pinfu) and/or a better wait. In these circumstance you don not need to riichi but you can also take tenpai as well. if the shanpon was isolated like this

1-bam 2-bam 3-bam 3-bam 4-bam 5-bam 8-bam 8-bam 6-dot 6-dot 3-crak 4-crak 5-crak 7-crak (dora 2-bam ) it is more favoured to riichi with 7-crak .

Choice of wait

Strength of Wait

The general strength of waits in order of strength are

Class A - jihai x2 shanpon > 14,69 double sided waits> 19 suji waits> jihai and number tile shannpon waits
Class B - double sided 25, 58 waits> double sided 36,47 waits> shanpo waits with both waits as suji tiles > jihai tanki waits> 28 suji waits> shanpon with one wait as suji tile and other as musuji>
Class C- suji 37, or double suji 456 kanchan waits> shanpon waits which are both musuji tiles> 19 tanki waits which are musuji
Class D - suji 28 or double suji 456 tanki waits> 28 kanchan musuji waits> 37 kanchan or penchan musuji waits>
Class E- katasuji 456 kanchan waits > double musuji 456 kanchan waits> 2837 musuji or 456 katasuji tanki waits
Class F - double musuji 456 tanki waits

The important thing you need to know know are that generally jihai waits= double sided waits> shanpon waits> kanchan waits

Discarding safe tile to get a bad wait, or discarding a danger tile to get a good wait

It is generally considered better to throw a danger tile for a good wait than vice versa. Exception are when you have very little chance of winning (very late into the game and there is a high chance of ryuukyoku) or you have to throw that tile against two opponents who is riiching and that tile is a double musuji 456 to both opponents.

Bad wait but high value or good wait but lower value

6-bam 7-bam 9-bam 4-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot 9-dot 1-crak 1-crak 7-crak 8-crak 9-crak ( dora 9-crak ) riichi 9-bam

6-bam 7-bam 9-bam 4-dot 5-dot 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot 9-dot 1-crak 1-crak 7-crak 8-crak 9-crak (dora :north ) riichi 6-bam

6-bam 7-bam 9-bam 4-dot 4-dot 4-dot 7-dot 8-dot 9-dot 1-crak 1-crak 7-crak 8-crak 9-crak (dora 9-crak ) doesn't matter too much but slightly riichi 6-bam favoured

6-bam 7-bam 9-bam 4-dot 4-dot 4-dot 7-dot 8-dot 9-dot 1-crak 1-crak 7-crak 8-crak 9-crak (dora 1-crak ) riichi 9-bam

This is a tricky question but the answers are generally that if you have pinfu and one other yaku or dora, its more advantageous to throw away the 2fan from sanshoku. However if it's only pinfu, then it's more advantageous to go for the sanshoku even if you have a worse wait. If you hand value is 2600 ( example 3) you can go either or but it is slightly more favoured to go for sanshoku. If you already have a minimum of 5200 (or more) you should always opt for the better wait.

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Re: Guide to ranking up on tenhou

Post by Mauro » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:47 pm

Just finished to read this, I was wondering about the risk table: I found a coupla of them before reading yours, and what struck me is you place yakuhai you can see one or two of higher than double suji 456 and other suji. Also given that you placen yakuhai waits at the same level as double sided, I was wondering about that order.

As reference: http://osamuko.com/basic-defense-techniques-in-mahjong/ and http://justanotherjapanesemahjongblog.b ... table.html

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