WWYD!

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gemma
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WWYD!

Post by gemma » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:22 pm

Lots of new people on the boards this week so I hope we can get an interesting discussion going. Please don\'t be shy! We all had to start somewhere. ;)

Dora: 1-crak

South Seat

East Round

Turn 12

3-crak 4-crak 5-crak 5-crak 6-crak 3-dot 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot 4-bam 5-bam 5-bam 6-bam 6-bam

carl
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Re:WWYD!

Post by carl » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:31 am

i\'d discard the 3-crak or 5-crak and go for the tanyao, 456 sanshoku, and possible iipeikou with the bamboos.

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Re:WWYD!

Post by minaminoteioh » Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:45 pm

6wan; I don\'t like destroying a ryanmen, but in this situation you have to. No point being overzealous for the sanshoku. Take the men-tan-pin + iipeikou, while stile being able to play some kind of defence

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Re:WWYD!

Post by zzo38 » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:26 pm

5man. The next tile I would be waiting for is 3pin or 6pin or 4sou or 7sou, which I would then throw the 3man. If I received another 3man then I would discard the 3pin instead. I will make tanyao+pinfu, with possible sanshoku (6pin) and/or iipeikou (4sou).

If the jackpot were large enough I might be OK with an exposed hand here. I would also try an exposed hand if it becomes too late for a good chance of making anything, because that way I will not only have better chances but also have tenpai in a drawn hand. However in most cases I would try for a concealed hand. But I would also look at other thrown tiles to guess what is more or less likely and for defending also (especially if East declared riichi).

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Re:WWYD!

Post by hirohurl » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:50 pm

If no 2wan dora have been thrown, I wouldn\'t want to throw the 3wan. As that could leave me waiting for a 2-5-8wan finish, I definitely don\'t want to throw the 5wan yet...

I\'d throw the 3pin, especially if some of those middle pin had already been discarded...

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Re:WWYD!

Post by Yttrasil » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:13 am

3m or 5m think the 5m throw outweights the 3m throw since it\'s easier to make a pair but the 3m throw leaves a small small chance for 2 double runs but that chance is very minuscule tbh.

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Re:WWYD!

Post by gartheee » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:58 am

The correct answer is....

don\'t discard anything! they\'re all just too useful.

OK, OK, back from fantasy land, this hand does look like it has great potential until we notice that we only have 5 more draws. The reality of the situation is that we probably aren\'t going to win this hand so we should definitely be ready to consider folding if there seems to be any danger and it\'s probably only going to be worth anything as a ready hand when it ends in a draw. So that said, the correct answer, by quite a large margin, is...(drum roll) 3 of dots! Unexpected?

OK, let\'s break it down by looking at what tiles will make us ready depending on what we discard and how many of those there are. I feel like I\'m taking the test to get into Renmei.

throw 3 of dots: 234567 of characters (21 tiles), 34567 of bamboos (15 tiles) for a total 36 tiles which could make us ready, 7 of which still leave open the possibility of 3 Colored Runs (3CR, Sanshoku in Japanese) and 4 of which make it a certainty.

throw 5 of characters: 36 of characters (6 tiles), 36 dots (6 tiles), 47 of bamboos (7 tiles) for a total of 19 which could make us ready, and again 7 leaving open 3CR and 4 ensuring it.

throw 5 bamboos: 47 of characters (7 tiles) 36 dots (6 tiles), 36 bamboos (6 tiles) for a total of 19 which could make us ready but 11 making 3CR possible and 4 guaranteeing it.

Incidentally, all three options guarantee Simples (tanyao) and Peace (pinfu) no matter which tile comes to make us ready, so there won\'t be any extra consideration there. I have to admit, my first inclination was to throw the 5 of characters but after really looking at it, we can see throwing the 3 of dots actually gives nearly twice as many options! Given what I said earlier about the most value for this hand probably just being getting to ready, the higher options is the way to go I think. One could maybe argue for the 5 bamboo option if, for example, it\'s earlier or we need points so we should take the slightly more 3CR favorable option. Of course, that kills the possible Double Run there so in the end I think the best answer is almost always going to be 3 of dots, unless you can see a lot of some needed tiles already the board.

gartheee
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Re:WWYD!

Post by gartheee » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:13 am

Oh yeah, one other thing which always confuses me too, the convention when noting the dora in these questions is usually to say exactly what it is, not the dora indicator. So when the question says it\'s 1 of characters, here at least, that will mean that the dora is in fact the 1 of characters, not that the 1 is indicating the 2. So dora is not really a factor in this question unless you want to shy away from waiting for characters because you think that other players will be waiting for/using them because they\'re near the dora. Still, the much larger number of options in characters still makes dropping 3 of dots the better choice, I think.

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Re:WWYD!

Post by HotelFSR » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:52 am

3pin. Seems like the obvious choice because you have more options around the wan and other players are going to be wanting them (which could be a good thing depending on how the discard piles are looking). As David says, you might even get a Sanmen wait.

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Re:WWYD!

Post by KawamuraReo » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:13 pm

3-crak 4-crak 5-crak 5-crak 6-crak 3-dot 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot 4-bam 5-bam 5-bam 6-bam 6-bam ---- Dora: 1-crak

Your Position: South Seat / Ton
Turn: 12

Ok, it seems the phase has begun to reach the last part of the kyoku, so it seems imperative that you make the decision that you either fold the hand which doesn\'t seem to unlikely... That depends, though, we have no idea about the possibility of dealing into someone - no pool shown. Anyway, I\'m going to assume here that we want to discard the tile to get into tenpai ASAP, since we have here the hand already, and this hand is probably ryanshanten at best. There are lots of different tiles we can toss here, but in the end, it determines off our tsumos.

If discard the 3-dot you can see a pretty big opportunity to win here, depending on what tiles you draw. Example, getting a 5-crak for a 5m ankou, you can go for a mentanpin iipeikou (Well, the same also applies if you get a 2-crak, which may or may not give you a dora, not entirely sure of that\'s an indicator or not)... If you draw a 3-bam, you can discard the 5s for mentanpin sansyoku! Drawing a 4-bam gets you mentanpin iipeikou if you toss the 6m, the 7-bam just gets you mentanpin only. But that\'s okay. However, the disaster strikes if you draw any P tiles, because you just discarded a 3-dot, any remotely useful P draws would blockade your tenpai =_= The balance of colours appear to be nice but actually it\'s not, if you look at the 3-dot 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot arrangement, that is an arrangement that you\'d expect when you are already in tenpai, not when you\'re in ryanshanten!



Ultimately, you can cut pretty much many tiles from this hand and still get the same winning hands... For example, cutting the 6-crak. It\'s harder to get hands that are worth more, but the 6m is a tile that\'s easy to win on, and getting rid of it now IF no one else appears to be waiting can be quite advantageous, especially when there are already 3-crak and 9-crak out in the pools - it means they couldn\'t possibly be waiting on the 6m, since that would make it a furiten wait. Furthermore, if you get lucky with the draw, you can still manage to win while appearing to be on the defense, which can set you up a win.



Okay, you can also proooobably throw the 5-crak if you want. It would definitely make for an interesting mind game. Depending on the draw, and what other people are waiting on based on their discards, you can do a cheaper hand by winning on the 3-crak 6-crak nobetanki wait and deny someone if you know they\'re going for something big. Alternatively you could CUT that 6-crak and instead go for mentanpin (iipeikou). There\'s also a chance for you to get sansyoku, however, that wouldn\'t be a ryanshanten wait, and with only 6 draws left, it can be quite difficult to pull it off. The possibility is still there, and 5m is relatively safe, so it\'s another possibility.



5-bam is tricky. It would give you these two things to contend with:

3-dot 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot 4-bam 5-bam 6-bam 6-bam

Now, at first glance, this may seem like a pretty ideal condition, depending on the draws you get. Especially since a number of tiles could get you in tenpai already. A top-class condition for entering the late-game of the kyoku. However, there is a complication. There are a number of arrangements in those toitsu of your hand that could ROYALLY screw you over. They are:

2-dot 3-dot 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot
4-bam 4-bam 5-bam 6-bam 6-bam
4-bam 5-bam 6-bam 6-bam 7-bam
3-dot 3-dot 4-dot 5-dot 5-dot

Just, what the heck are you supposed to deal if you get those toitsu and want to get into tenpai? Remember you still have 3-crak 4-crak 5-crak 5-crak 6-crak. Getting ANY of those 4 arrangements would just clutter your hand with more incomplete runs, something you don\'t want to encounter this late in the game, and it may force you to fold if the flow of the game isn\'t in your favor. However, it\'s fine if you\'re lucky. It\'s a gamble. Then again, Mahjong is a gamble in itself.


Taking these into account, the the best strategic tile to cut is probably the 3-dot, like a lot of other people have said. That isn\'t to demerit the other tiles, I myself would rather cut the 6-crak or the 5-bam, because of my unorthodox playing style, but that\'s just me. Logically speaking, though, 3p is the best.

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Re:WWYD!

Post by hirohurl » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:29 pm

Ah yes, I see my mistake about the Dora - it is just as it says, Dora: 1 Characters!

I also didn\'t take the number of plays into account. It is a great hand for finishing Tenpai if nobody goes out... but it could also involve a dangerous middle tile throw.

Nice WWYD?.

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Re:WWYD!

Post by July » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:19 pm

5 wan. With any luck, you pull the 6 dots, but if something else happens you can always pick up the floating pair wait.

Or it was late in the hand? Hmm. In that case, just play it safe.

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