0 points

[xKime]

wow...that furiten wait was pure BS.

Pure BS

It sure is. But the times when I switch from digital to occult are just filled with magicz.

Until I deal into a mangan and then remember "shit, that's right, I have to play tight..."

[Fat*Dragon]

Also, it happens quite a few times that fate smiles on the other players at the table, and prevents me from killing the guy in fourth leaving him with 0 points.

I might not have paid attention to it or maybe I just don't have played enough games until now. But does that mean that if a player has exactly zero points on Tenhou the game goes on? Is this a general rule of mahjong or just a Tenhou rule?

Lucky for me, in Janryuumon, 0 points still counts as tobi and the game ends. But when I play there, luck is such that they are left with 100 points. Good enough to continue the game.

What is "tobi"? And does it mean that Janryuumon treats zero points different to Tenhou (in ending the game)?

Sorry for the stupid qustions but I don't want to die dumb. This game offers just too many rules. Everytime I think now is the point where I got somewhere another door opens up...

Thanks for any help/clarification!

[Barticle]

ぶっとび [buttobi]
トビ [tobi]
ドボン [dobon]

These are all names for the optional bankruptcy rule which ends a game early when a player's points total drops below zero (and in some cases also when it becomes exactly zero). It's a very common option in video-games and in my experience the default setting is usually ari - so the rule is applied.

I copied those from my PDF guide btw - well worth a look.

[xKime]

Yes, in addition to that, Janryuumon has a few rules that differ from tenhou.

For example...

Tenhou:
Four riichi are declared, the game is considered a draw.
Three people won off the same discard, the game is considered a draw.
If you don't get past the hill (30,000 points) the game goes on until someone does.
There are no "double yakuman" but you can stack multiple yakuman (suu an kou tanki is 1 yakuman, but suu an kou tanki + daisangen is 2 yakuman).
No renhou yakuman.

Janryuumon:
Four riichi are declared, the game continues.
Three people won off the same discard, the player must pay all three winners!
There is no hill. The game ends at the end of the All Last.
There are double yakuman and you can also stack yakuman. (suu an kou tanki is 2 yakuman, but suu an kou tanki + daisangen is 3 yakuman).

Just to tell you a few off the top of my head.

Also, the tsumo payments in 3p is differnet in Janryuumon and Tenhou.

[Fat*Dragon]

@Barticle & xKime

Thanks for your help and additional info. The 30.000 points limit would have been my next question... Seems like xKime's not only able to read discards...
Like I said, I think I've seen games on TH where people had 100 points left but 0 points? I don't know. Whatever. Now I have to go out on TH and force some people to show me that Zero-Points-Trick!

[Barticle]

The 30.000 points limit would have been my next question...

That optional rule's called 西入 - Shānyū - loosely "enter west".

It's common to play games with a (usually unseen) 30k buy-in but 25k starting scores. In this case the spare 4x5000 pts form the Oka bonus that goes to the player that wins the match. Consequently a player needs to get their score over 30,000 to effectively make a profit.

With the Shānyū rule the game continues until this happens, so in a hanchan you'd play a third (west) round - hence the rule name.

Going back to the PS3, I first encountered this rule option in Mahjong Taikai IV (it has options for 30k, 30.1k, 33k and 35k) and thought I'd experiment with it (playing offline against bots). It's an interesting exercise to try to keep your opponents' scores below 30k while at the same time trying to avoid a big win yourself. On my first attempt though I got a west round, then a south round and then another east round before the match ended!

[Fat*Dragon]

@Barticle

Going back to the PS3, I first encountered this rule option in Mahjong Taikai IV (it has options for 30k, 30.1k, 33k and 35k)

Does that mean if shānyū is 30k then, if you started with 30k ,there is no progression over >30k needed? The taget is exactly 30k, your starting score, right? In case of shānyū 30.1k a win of at least 100 points is needed?

[xKime]

The 30.000 points limit would have been my next question...

That optional rule's called 西入 - Shānyū - loosely "enter west".

It sure is. Quite literally at that.
Although I refrain from generalizing, as 東風戦 rather than 西入 has 南入. I tend to use the term "hill" + "sudden death" in the Englishz speaking communityz.

I'm actually beginning to grasp the English terminology thanks to this site... I had no idea that people called dora "lucky dragons" or even what a "bump" was. Now I try to make a note about English terminology whenever it's possible. Even in my translations.

What Barticle said is correct. Additionally, in a tonpuusen, you would go enter South Round. (For tonpuusen it is common to have a 25k "buy in" and 20k starting points. If I recall, Tenhou used to do it that way)

Seems like xKime's not only able to read discards...

Oh, I'm so great at reading discards that I discard the winner just to see that I was right.

Does that mean if shānyū is 30k then, if you started with 30k ,there is no progression over >30k needed? The taget is exactly 30k, your starting score, right? In case of shānyū 30.1k a win of at least 100 points is needed?

I have never played the Mahjong Taikai, but I'm quite possitive there are many ways that you can agree on before playing, and more often than not the rules will be shown to you somewhere.

If Shaanyuu is 30k and you started with 30k, you may as well say that there is no shaanyuu at all, as there is always going to be someone with at least 30k. Unless the target wasn't 30k, but 30.1k as there is a chance everyone has exactly 30k at the end of the last round (I think I've seen this). Although it's pretty much pointless to stablish such a shaanyuu if everyone started with 30k. You might as well forget about uma and oka (points spreads and prizes?) and just write down the raw scores, or stablish a higher shaanyuu.

For example, three player mahjong has high starting points, but an even higher shaanyuu.

I am terrible with shaanyuu. When we are already in sudden death, I feel like it's "do or die" and more often than not, there is a high chance I will die. And being on the lead with 29k is a very desperating situation, as you may say "okay, I'm not the dealer, so if I don't deal in I have second place in my pocket" or "I need to win this hand no matter what so I win.... oh fck, I dealt in into a 3900 hand. Now I got third and the jerkoff got first." Or similar situations.

If anything, I would play without tobi as well. I don't deserve second place because the guy in last kept absorbing hits. I wanted my chance at surpassing the leader.

Still, be sure to confirm what ruleset you are playing under, asit is different from place to place and no matter what they tell you, it -will- make a difference.

[Barticle]

Although I refrain from generalizing, as 東風戦 rather than 西入 has 南入.

Indeed. I just checked Mahjong Taikai - specifically it only offers 西入 and the option becomes fixed nashi if you pick an east-only match. Oddly though it does permit you to play a hanchan with 30k starting scores and 30k Shānyū target.

I'm actually beginning to grasp the English terminology thanks to this site... I had no idea that people called dora "lucky dragons" or even what a "bump" was. Now I try to make a note about English terminology whenever it's possible. Even in my translations.

I believe the katakana rendering "do-ra-go-n" is the origin of the term dora.

I don't know how widespread those English terms are though. I think most folks would just use the Japanese "dora" as it's such a simple term, plus "lucky dragons" (dora) can easily get confused with the so-called dragon tiles (san gen pai), especially since both have red types!

[xKime]

Although I refrain from generalizing, as 東風戦 rather than 西入 has 南入.

Indeed. I just checked Mahjong Taikai - specifically it only offers 西入 and the option becomes fixed nashi if you pick an east-only match. Oddly though it does permit you to play a hanchan with 30k starting scores and 30k Shānyū target.

I'm actually beginning to grasp the English terminology thanks to this site... I had no idea that people called dora "lucky dragons" or even what a "bump" was. Now I try to make a note about English terminology whenever it's possible. Even in my translations.

I believe the katakana rendering "do-ra-go-n" is the origin of the term dora.

I don't know how widespread those English terms are though. I think most folks would just use the Japanese "dora" as it's such a simple term, plus "lucky dragons" (dora) can easily get confused with the so-called dragon tiles (san gen pai), especially since both have red types!

Well, I guess they reach North America and Europe a little. But I'm one of those people who thinks the original terms are easier to understand.

And you happen to be absolutely right. I googled it, and according to Wikipedia
ドラという用語は戦後アメリカからもたらされた用語で、元来は白・發・中の三元牌3種を「ドラゴン」と呼んでいた。これが時代が下るにつれて現在の意味に変わっていった。
dora to iu yougo ha sengo amerika kara motararasareta yougo de, ganrai ha haku hatsu chun no sangenpai 3shu wo "doragon" to yonde ita. kore ga jidai ga kudaru ni tsurete genzai no imi ni kawatte itta.
The term dora is a term obtained from the United States after World War II, originally the Haku, Hatsu and Chun were called "dragons." As time passed, it turned into the current meaning.

So, yeah, it is very easy to get confused on that ground. In the latest podcast, I think Garthe and Jenn had to keep reminding themselves that the English speaking community isn't very familiar with the word "dora." Or so it seems. They jumped to Japanese terms so naturally that they had to explain what it all was. It was very cute. However, I think "dora" is a perfectly acceptable and understandable word for about every language... Lucky Dragons, on the other hand... Besides, it gives off the impression that mahjong is about luck.

About starting with 30k and having 30k of shaanyuu, isn't it just a way to adjust the game so that there is no shaanyuu?
Can you adjust that game so that there is no uma and oka too?

[Fat*Dragon]

Thanks for your answers again!

I think "dora" is a perfectly acceptable and understandable word for about every language...

"Dora" is easy to understand and doesn't need to be translated (IMO). If you understand it's concept then you better stick with it. It only confuses me when I hear people say "lucky dragon", cause I never know what they mean. Is it a dora? Is it a dragon which they were glad to draw? You never know and probably themselves don't either. There are other names or names for rules which are much harder to remember because there are more Japanese words used to describe them. These are the ones I would personally translated. But "pon", "chi", etc. are basic concepts which can easily grasped.

Lucky Dragons, on the other hand... Besides, it gives off the impression that mahjong is about luck.

Isn't it all about luck!?

Sorry that I have another question regarding Tenhou's rules. Yesterday I read Osamuko.com's "Japanese General Laws of Mahjong", SECTION SEVEN: ENDING THE GAME, which says: If the dealer becomes the HIGH SCORER during the FINAL ROUND due to the NOTEN PENALTY, the game continues. Is this rule also used on Tenhou?

Consider the following situation. A game with Shānyū target of 30.1k. South round, last dealer. Standing as follows: East 30k, South 30k, West 20k, North 20k.
East receives noten payment of 1000 points from each player. Now he's at 33k and took over the lead because of noten payment. He fulfills the requirement of Shānyū BUT due to the above state rule the game goes on?

[Barticle]

However, I think "dora" is a perfectly acceptable and understandable word for about every language...

I learnt the game from the full mahjong minigame in Yakuza 2 (PS2) which uses equivalent English terms for the yaku, yakuman, winds and dragons, but it still uses "dora" (and "red dora").

When I got my first Japanese game the first two kana I learnt were do and ra.

About starting with 30k and having 30k of shaanyuu, isn't it just a way to adjust the game so that there is no shaanyuu?

Effectively yes, but you can also set it manually to nashi.

Can you adjust that game so that there is no uma and oka too?

You can indeed. The uma options are nashi / 0-5 / 0-10 / 0-20 / 0-30 / 5-10 (default) / 10-20 / 10-30 / 20-30 and you can set the starting score to 25k (therefore 20k oka) / 27k (12k oka) or 30k (no oka). Oka is fixed ari with the 25k or 27k starts though I think.

There's a nice range of options overall - those three plus kuitan, tsumo pinfu, ippatsu, dora types, nō-ten bappu, renchan conditions, dobon/tobi, 1/2 rounds, agari yame, abortive draws, two-han minimum, our friend wareme, pārenchan, nagashi mangan, special yakuman (renhō and shiisanpūtā), double yakuman and double ron.

Isn't it all about luck!?

Mostly!

Sorry that I have another question regarding Tenhou's rules. Yesterday I read Osamuko.com's "Japanese General Laws of Mahjong", SECTION SEVEN: ENDING THE GAME, which says: If the dealer becomes the HIGH SCORER during the FINAL ROUND due to the NOTEN PENALTY, the game continues. Is this rule also used on Tenhou?

I think this line is just a clarification of the optional agari yame rule which says that a dealer who wins the final hand and is leading on points can choose to end the match early (instead of playing an extra hand), i.e. they need specifically to win the hand rather than holding the lead after an exhaustive draw. The statement is talking about a game continuing with an extra hand (continuance), not a west round.

I would think shānyū is only considered when the full normal duration of the match has been played, i.e. the end of the very last hand of the south round (including any continuances). In your example it would depend on whether the rules specify that the dealer "stays on" with an extra hand if they are tenpai in a draw or only when they win the hand.

If an extra hand is played only when the dealer wins then in the example the game would have ended normally. The dealer is not eligible for an extra hand and they have achieved the shānyū target so a third round is not required.

If the dealer stays on in a tenpai draw (this is the case in the General Laws as translated by Benjamin) then an extra hand would be played. The dealer didn't win the hand so, as per the statement above, they cannot end with agari yame. The normal game has not yet ended so shānyū is not considered.

(I guess a dealer would not be permitted to end the match early under agari yame, even if they won a hand, if their (1st place) score was below the shānyū target.)

I hope that makes sense. I'm writing this at lunchtime in a noisy office and my brain hurts!

[xKime]

"Dora" is easy to understand and doesn't need to be translated (IMO). If you understand it's concept then you better stick with it. It only confuses me when I hear people say "lucky dragon", cause I never know what they mean. Is it a dora? Is it a dragon which they were glad to draw? You never know and probably themselves don't either. There are other names or names for rules which are much harder to remember because there are more Japanese words used to describe them. These are the ones I would personally translated. But "pon", "chi", etc. are basic concepts which can easily grasped.

And it doesn't help when they abbreviate the "dragons" as "drags."

Besides, dragons aren't lucky. The lucky one is the guy who has it in his mentsu/melds. w

Isn't it all about luck!?

If mahjong was all about luck, I would rarely win anymore...
Oh, wait, I rarely win nowadays.

Sorry that I have another question regarding Tenhou's rules. Yesterday I read Osamuko.com's "Japanese General Laws of Mahjong", SECTION SEVEN: ENDING THE GAME, which says: If the dealer becomes the HIGH SCORER during the FINAL ROUND due to the NOTEN PENALTY, the game continues. Is this rule also used on Tenhou?

Last time this happened to me, it was so. If I recall, the latest adjustment of Tenhou in that aspect is the "tenpai yame" rule. This would mean that before, if you were first in Oorasu and you were the dealer, if you were in tenpai you had to play the renchan. With "tenpai yame," the game ends even if you're tenpai in a draw, if you're last dealer and you're on first. But "stealing first place" -because- of a draw (meaning you were not on first place before) is not acceptable and sudden death continues.

Consider the following situation. A game with Shānyū target of 30.1k. South round, last dealer. Standing as follows: East 30k, South 30k, West 20k, North 20k.
East receives noten payment of 1000 points from each player. Now he's at 33k and took over the lead because of noten payment. He fulfills the requirement of Shānyū BUT due to the above state rule the game goes on?

If the set of rules specified so, then yes.

I learnt the game from the full mahjong minigame in Yakuza 2 (PS2) which uses equivalent English terms for the yaku, yakuman, winds and dragons, but it still uses "dora" (and "red dora").

When I got my first Japanese game the first two kana I learnt were do and ra.

Haha, I have to play that game. I've seen videos in youtube about it.

I can actually difference the katakana tsu and shi thanks to so many tsumo. w

Effectively yes, but you can also set it manually to nashi.

You can indeed. The uma options are nashi / 0-5 / 0-10 / 0-20 / 0-30 / 5-10 (default) / 10-20 / 10-30 / 20-30 and you can set the starting score to 25k (therefore 20k oka) / 27k (12k oka) or 30k (no oka). Oka is fixed ari with the 25k or 27k starts though I think.

There's a nice range of options overall - those three plus kuitan, tsumo pinfu, ippatsu, dora types, nō-ten bappu, renchan conditions, dobon/tobi, 1/2 rounds, agari yame, abortive draws, two-han minimum, our friend wareme, pārenchan, nagashi mangan, special yakuman (renhō and shiisanpūtā), double yakuman and double ron.

It sounds like a great game.
If a guy could recieve the link to a rom in PM, I'm sure he would try to play it for sure. *cough*
Not that I'm requesting anything illegal. I'm not. I'm just making a supposition.
-----------

All in all, I think mahjong scoring rules are very fascinating. There is such a thing as too little and too many points, and whatever rules you choose for playing (tobi ari/nashi, uma, oka, haikyuu genten, aotenjou, the value of every honba, the value of nouten bappu, aotenjou, etc) does affect the game greatly. Especially its duration. It can end early because of someone dropping below 0, and just go on for many more rounds if no one reaches the target score. Much better than games where you just have to "keep scoaring 'em pointz" and it ends when it ends. In a "agari/tenpai yame" nashi game, you could perhaps choose to be nouten to end it, or go on to make up for the points lost in other hanchan. So, I guess what I want to say is, getting to know your ruleset is the best thing you can do. Hence, I'm glad to answer to my best in regards to Tenhou and Janryuumon (which are the ones I play most).

[Barticle]

And it doesn't help when they abbreviate the "dragons" as "drags."

I quite like using that, but only in "big (or little) three drags".

To add to the confusion, I tried googling and found this cartoon character!

http://dannyphantom.wikia.com/wiki/Dora_the_Dragon_Ghost

If mahjong was all about luck, I would rarely win anymore...
Oh, wait, I rarely win nowadays.

No, you just get daily yakumen.

Haha, I have to play that game. I've seen videos in youtube about it.

I'm a big fan of the Yakuza series (originally Ryū ga Gotoku in Japan). Each has a small but detailed immersive environment, great fight engine, engaging characters and tons of side-missions and playable minigames.

There's a full mahjong game with modern Japanese rules (riichi and dora). Four basic options: 1 or 2 rounds, kuitan, red fives and two-han minimum. You usually buy sticks so you gamble with in-game money, and you have to vist a parlour or other location to play.

Yakuza 2 on the PS2 is one of the few places you can play Japanese mahjong in English. Sega decided to cut several games and missions from the PS3's Yakuza 3 (the English version of RGG3) so sadly mahjong was removed. It should however be available in Yakuza 4 which comes out mid-March next year.

The main series is set in modern-day Japan but there's also a spin-off called Kenzan for the PS3 which is set in 17th century Gion, with plenty of swordfighting as you might expect. That one's not available in English though.

I'm old fashioned (and generally law-abiding!) so I still like to have physical games sitting on my shelf. I mostly import Japanese retail game discs/cartridges from eBay sellers in Japan or Hong Kong. A big benefit of this is that you get the manual - it's much easier to read kanji there compared to my TV screen, plus they usually put furigana over the text which makes it even easier.

I can actually difference the katakana tsu and shi thanks to so many tsumo. w

And presumably so and n from ronning?

[Fat*Dragon]

@xKime
Wrote a PM 4 u.