Dealer continuances

[Barticle]

Hi all,

In the video-games where I learnt mahjong the dealer got an extra hand (renchan) if they won the hand or were tenpai in a draw. I´m now playing Mahjong Taikai IV which gives three options:

houra - dealer stays only if they win

tenpai - dealer stays on in a win or tenpai draw

nanba - dealer stays on in a win or any draw, i.e. until another player wins (this is the default option in the standard rule-set)

Firstly I just wondered what option you all play, in real life or online...?

Secondly (for extra points) I take \"nanba\" (in kanji) as meaning \"south round\" - what´s that all about? :unsure:

Thanks,

Bart

[essnov]

Hey there,

Both online and IRL, the rules for dealer continuance that I use are the following:

- After an exhaustive draw, the deal only passes if east is noten (not ready).

- If east wins, then he gets another shot at being the dealer.

- During the south fourth round, the dealer may choose to end the hanchan if he wins the hand and is leading in terms of total points for the hanchan (this is automatic on tenhou.net).

Hope this helps.

[Barticle]

Thanks essnov. An extra hand when the dealer is no-ten felt a little over-generous to me (although of course all players get the same benefit) but I wondered if that´s just because I´m used to \"win or tenpai\" renchan.

(I´m now playing on a custom rule-set with the setting that I (and you) are used to!)

I´ve already encountered the Agari Yame rule (discussed recently) where the final dealer can quit if they´re leading and win.

One of the new (optional) rules I´ve learnt from the game is Shaanyuu where a third (west) round is played if no-one exceeds a target score by the end of the second (various values allowed but default is 30,100 pts).

[Zi Rong Low]

Nanba No-ten (Yes/No) is the rule to determine whether Dealer repetition occurs in South Round if he is No-ten at the end of a hand.

Agari Yame (Yes/No) is the rule to determine whether the Dealer can end the game in All Last (South Round 4th Hand/Kyoku)if he won the hand. Some people who say yes to this rule make it so the dealer can quit ***only*** if he\'s in the lead. However I have played a few video games which allow him to quit even if he\'s 2nd place or lower.

[Barticle]

Nanba No-ten (Yes/No) is the rule to determine whether Dealer repetition occurs in South Round if he is No-ten at the end of a hand.

Ohhhh! I getcha. It didn´t mention no-ten, at least not in katakana which is how it´s normally given. Perhaps it just says "any draw in south round".

So it´s win/tenpai in the east round, then win/draw in the south. I´ll test that out later. Thanks again!

[Zi Rong Low]

(use Shift-JIS)

Nanba Noten is often written as \"“ì

[Barticle]

I checked it out and it´s definitely a Nanba No-Ten rule, thanks. :)

Btw I used to have Mahjong Taikai III on the PS2 but I don\'t play it anymore. I see that in the latest version which you have, they have reverted back to the historical characters genre...

Yeah, I recognise Genghis Khan, Columbus, Cleopatra and Napoleon (and can read their names in katakana). The others all have kanji names which I haven´t tackled yet.

Whenever anyone makes a declaration (even pon or chii) one of them pops up to make a speech. They might be interesting if you can understand spoken Japanese but otherwise they get old very quickly. My first task in translating was to find the option to turn off the animations! ;)

I assume the potential rule options haven\'t changed much between the two. I\'m on my holidays at the moment so if there\'s anything you\'re not sure about, I\'d be happy to help within the next 2 weeks!

That´s really good of you. :) I´ve actually made really good progress and have figured out all the menus, stats and the 20 optional rules.

It would be good if you could look over the fixed rules though, thanks; I´m uncertain on the ones marked.

http://i41.tinypic.com/nnjrwn.jpg

9. is this just the rule that pon, chii, etc, stop ippatsu?
11. honba points?
12. confused by that 5 & 6 thing!
13. if two people finish with the same points?
21. something about open kongs and rinchan?

Oh and lemme guess, I bet Mahjong Taikai IV doesn\'t have the Red Fives option either, do they?!

Heh! Yeah, you´ll see that fixed rule #25 is simply \"akapai nashi\". It´s weird isn´t it? I don´t use them myself, but Red Fives are really popular and it would be so easy to implement them in the game. :unsure:

[Zi Rong Low]

(Use Shift-JIS)

9. This is saying that once any melds are declared (pon, chi and kan including concealed kan), then the potential ippatsu effect for that round of discards will disappear.

11. Each Honba is worth an extra 300 points.

12. ‚TŽÌ‚U“ü (Go Sha Roku Nyuu, it literally means \"5 discard, 6 enter\") is a an optional method in rounding the the ending score to the nearest 1000.

In this option, it means that if the 100s bit is 500 or less, then round *DOWN*. And if the 100s bit is 600 or more, then round *UP*.

Eg. Final scores are
A is 30300
B is 23800
C is 26700
D is 19200

These will be rounded to 30000, 24000, 27000 and 19000 respectively.
30000 points as the baseline will then be subtracted.
The \"Oka\" pot of 4 * (Baseline - Starting Score) = 20000 points will be awarded to the winner.
Then express the Match scores as a neat multiple of 1000.

So the Match scores will be:
A: (30000 - 30000 + 20000)/1000 = +20
B: (24000 - 30000)/1000 = -6
C: (27000 - 30000)/1000 = -3
D: (19000 - 30000)/1000 = -11

Note that the sum of the Match scores must be 0, which in this case is correct.

However there are cases where after rounding, the sum of the players\' scores changes.

Eg. Final scores are
Q is 30400
X is 14400
Y is 17400
Z is 37800

30400 + 14400 + 17400 + 37800 = 100000

After rounding, it becomes 30000, 14000, 17000 and 38000 respectively.

However, 30000 + 14000 + 17000 + 38000 = 99000

Shortage of 1000 points has occurred which Z the winner ought to receive as part of the Match score.

Problem of shortage can be fixed by calculating the Match scores of the 3 losers, and then inverting the sum of those 3 values to make it Z\'s Match score. Skip Oka addition as that will have been part of the inversion.

So it\'s
Q: (30000 - 30000)/1000 = +/- 0
X: (14000 - 30000)/1000 = -16
Y: (17000 - 30000)/1000 = -13

Z: Invert (0 -16 -13 = -29) --> +29 !

So instead of receiving (37800 - 30000 + 20000)/1000 = +27.8 if there was no rounding at all, the rounding error has marginally increased his Match score.

[Zi Rong Low]

(Use Shift-JIS)

13. If 2 people end up with the top same score (extremely rarely 3, and nearly impossible 4), then the person closest to the \"starting point\" (position of the very first dealer) in an ***ANTI-CLOCKWISE*** direction gets the higher priority.

This priority method also applies to games in which Double Ron isn\'t allowed.

For example look at my picture below.

A and C both ended up with 40000 points. Physically they are both the same distance away from X.

However, A is closer to X in an *Anti-Clockwise direction*, so he will be the one that\'s considered 1st place and receive the Oka bonus etc.

A is technically the \"Toimen/Opposite\" player to C. However using the

[Zi Rong Low]

I had downloaded older Japanese Mahjong games produced by KOEI (including Mahjong Taikai I and II) and none of them allowed Red Fives. I think it\'s a silly attempt by the programmers to be consistent?!

[Barticle]

Firstly what a fantastic diagram - I love it! :lol:

Secondly massive thanks for your detailed response. :woohoo: This is very helpful.

I hadn´t seen this scoring system or played with Oka before so I had to reverse-engineer a few examples until I worked out what was going on. I´d noticed that the rounding was sometimes fixed to get the scores to sum to zero.

I knew the priority went anti-clockwise around the table but I saw the word \"kamicha\" there and thought that meant \"the player to your left\" which threw me a little.

The kan rule is interesting - not one I´d seen before.

I learnt MJ from the minigame in the Ryuu ga Gotoku (Yakuza) games. They only have four basic rule options but Red Fives are included! At least I have those games if I ever want to play a game with akapai.

Thanks again for your replies. :) I´ll check if there´s anything else I´m stuck on.

One thing I did want to ask: did the previous Taikai games have a system of unlockable \"titles\" (shoogou)? Every so often I´m awarded one but the kanji are hard to read on my TV. It seems to be things like \"you made a big attack\" or \"sensei riichi\" (not teacher \"sensei\", the one that means a head-start) and each ends with the Jan things I mentioned in the other thread - Jan-Ookami, Jan-Tora, etc. Sound familiar?

[Zi Rong Low]

Oka is *always* calculated and contributes to the Top person\'s Match score. The only exception I can think of is if the starting score was 30000 (instead of 25000 or 27000 etc), in which the Starting Score - Baseline = 0, hence no Oka bonus!

Red Fives are really nice, you can aim for a quick Tanyao with 1 or 2 dora! Lots of Japanese Mahjong games (apart from the KOEI ones) on the SNES seem to allow them...

Never played the Yakuza games on the PS2. Besides the mahjong bit, are they any good?

I only spent a little time on Mahjong Taikai I and II.

Mahjong Taikai III didn\'t have unlockable titles/names. However if you became overall 1st place at any stage after 10 matches (insanely hard unless you keep on resetting the game and only save data if you become 1st/2nd place), you\'d receive 2 \"random\" prizes which happen to just be 3D objects like an expensive violin, piano, necklace etc.

Thing is, the \"random\" prizes often repeat themselves especially later on so it\'d be an absolute bitch to collect them all! I think that was a pathetic attempt to increase the replay value.

[Barticle]

Yeah, Taikai IV gives options of 25k, 27k or 30k which gives Oka of 20k, 12k or zero. The Yakuza minigame seems to be a little more basic though - you buy-in with 25k rather than 30k (using sticks you´ve bought) and the final scores add to 100k. The Uma is 25k/0/-10k/-15k.

Personally I prefer to have one less thing to think about, although I do like getting big scores. :) I´d expect most Japanese games to offer Red Fives really.

I´ve got Yakuza 2 (PS2) which is the English translation of \"Ryuu ga Gotoku 2\" with English text/captions but retaining the original Japanese dialogue (a good thing compared to the dub on Yakuza 1!). It´s set in the present day in two detailed bustling city-centres with lots of story, side missions, minigames and brawling (the fight engine is good). It´s really cheap to buy already, so recommended.

I also have \"Ryuu ga Gotoku: Kenzan!\" which is an off-shoot from the series - like the main games but transplanted to samurai times (in fact, although your character looks the same as usual he´s supposed to be Miyamoto Musashi). It´s only available in Japanese at the moment but is fun to play and looks great (PS3 graphics). The minigames include mahjong again - even though it didn´t exist then!

You win a piano? Nice. :lol: In Taikai IV you unlock extra tile sets, table tops and background music - nothing special but at least something you can use.

Here´s an example of some of the titles I´ve got so far. Do they make any sense to you?

http://i27.tinypic.com/21ox63l.jpg

My working hypothesis is that you progress through \"Jan...\" ranks as you unlock these.

[Zi Rong Low]

First title is \"Jan Tiger\" that focuses on offense.

Second is \"Jan Tiger\" that declares Riichi as soon as he becomes Tenpai.

Third is \"Jan Dragon\" that has a head start (early) in declaring Riichi.

Fourth is like the second one, except you are now a \"Jan Hero\".

You seem to make lots of Riichis there, don\'t you? :)

[Barticle]

Ah, excellent! Thank you. I thought that might be \"yuu\" (hero) but didn´t know the other one. I liked being a Jan Tora best. :laugh:

I´ve got riichi in 160 out of 331 wins. I love having stats! :cheer:

These rewards are a little odd - calling riichi early is just a matter of luck and reaching as soon as you´re tenpai isn´t necessarily the best tactic if you can improve your wait.

I wonder if the game awards a title for good defensive play. I must try it sometime!!

What´s the first kanji on the bottom one btw?

PS I got tenpai on Little Four Winds last night... then another player went Tsumo. Nooooooo! :dry:

PPS I think Mahjong players must be worse than fishermen for tales of \"the one that got away\"! :laugh: