Discussion Rule Variants

[sevenup]

Well, there is another set actually in local rules. But not many know it, so I do not have to say about it here.

[chalwa]

I think if its concealed, you count Iipeikou and Junchan. So you can have more fans.

What Shirluban is saying is that the player can chose how he want to count his hand, even if it will give him less points. So you dont always get junchan, but you get it if you want to count it that way.

[sevenup]

Then Ryanpeikou (3) could be just Chiitoitsu (2), but it won\'t happen. According to the rule, Yaku\'s are decided based on the bigger number of fans.

[chalwa]

What rule are you according to? I know only about rule that player can chose in which way he wants to count his hand, even if it gives him less points. Not to look to far you can find it in EMA rules point 4.1.1. It wont happen very often but there can be situations when player dont want to get more points (for example if he want to go to sha round if there is rule with minimum 30.000 point to end game).

[sevenup]

I am not familiar with EMA thing. I am talking about the popular rule in Japan. In many areas in Japan as well as most (probably all) professionals follow the rule I am talking about.

I believe it is rather rare to see differences in scoring system among local rules actually. If you play with the rule that allows you can pick a hand with fewer fans, I do not believe this is common for the Japanese.

[chalwa]

Scoring lower when you can score more is not common for anybody. Case here is if it is possible or not. You say that Japanese don\'t do this, because you have never saw they do it, or because you have read it in some rules set. If so please show link to it or some other reference, because I would like to verify if I\'m wrong. If someone else know for sure, info about it would be nice.

[Shirluban]

Scoring a hand in the most rewarding way is common sense. So most players, if not all, will do this.

Enforcing players to get the bigger score makes sense, because :
1) Intentionally lowering the hand value could be see as playing dirty.
2) Get some advantage against a weaker player because he have trouble scoring is not fair play.

But, I never seen a rule that explicitly forbids to count a hand lower than it worth.
If anyone know a rule saying this, I will be glad to see it. Even if it\'s in a language I can\'t read.



<slander>
I already seen a rule saying the opposite.
In Chinese Official, a big part of the game consists to laugh at players who get blurred by the excessive amount of scoring patterns and forget to count some of their points.
</slander>

[Tom Sloper]

<slander>
I already seen a rule saying the opposite.
In Chinese Official, a big part of the game consists to laugh at players who get blurred by the excessive amount of scoring patterns and forget to count some of their points.
</slander>

Sadly, this is the practice. It\'s an unintended consequence (I hope) of the way the rules are written and conveyed.

[Robert]

I was thinking about how people on this site like to compare mahjong to poker.

In poker, there is the \"Cards Speak\" rule.

[Benjamin]

Shirluban wrote:

But, I never seen a rule that explicitly forbids to count a hand lower than it worth.
If anyone know a rule saying this, I will be glad to see it. Even if it\'s in a language I can\'t read.

I\'ve never heard of an actual rule saying this, but its common practice over here. Intentionally scoring your hand lower would be considered poor sportsmanship, even if it was a situation which clearly disadvantaged you. Like if you won a hand that put you 100 points shy of first place but happened to knock the guy in 4th below zero, thus ending the game and not giving you a chance to shoot for first.

<slander>
I already seen a rule saying the opposite.
In Chinese Official, a big part of the game consists to laugh at players who get blurred by the excessive amount of scoring patterns and forget to count some of their points.
</slander>

This is a really regrettable part of the game but I don\'t think it\'ll ever be fixed until the general level of play is much higher or the scoring is reformed. For the record, I think scores should be rounded up to 10, like fu. That\'d make things a lot more interesting.

[sevenup]

Scoring lower when you can score more is not common for anybody. Case here is if it is possible or not. You say that Japanese don\'t do this, because you have never saw they do it, or because you have read it in some rules set. If so please show link to it or some other reference, because I would like to verify if I\'m wrong. If someone else know for sure, info about it would be nice.

Well, here it is:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%BA%BB% ... 7%E5%90%88

Now, I am wondering if I should say that I live in Japan as I am Japanese and learned this game many years ago, like over 20 years...

Anything else should I add to that?

As for local rules, this link will give you an idea why they exist.
http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~cbm15900/html/y20.html

[Benjamin]

You mean this, don\'t you:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AB%98% ... 9.E6.B3.95

I don\'t remember seeing \"kou ten hou\" in any group\'s mahjong rules, but I think it\'s pretty much standard practice. I do think it\'s a good idea to append to EMA\'s rules.

EDIT--Sorry, I should have clarified to say that what is being cited is a wikipedia subsection on the \"higher scoring law\" in Japanese mahjong that says a player must choose the higher scoring combination if he has a choice. My objection to this is that it\'s an unsourced wikipedia article (Japanese wikipedia does not use citations for the most part), not an actual set of rules used by an organization.

[Barticle]

* Open Riichi: Upon declaration of riichi, you can optionally reveal your hand (or just the parts that are relevant to your wait). [...]

This is very popular in the UK... :silly:



I live near the BT depot so I see several of these vans each day.

[gemma]

haha they\'ve been round my house this week to fix my phone and internet line

[Shirluban]

Thanks for the link.

As Benjamin said, it\'s a Wikipedia resource.
In other terms, it\'s write by various more-or-less anonymous authors who each bring their knowledge ... just like this very one forum!
The only \"trustiest\" taste is the fact it\'s write in Japanese.

I don\'t deny this \"kouten hou\" is common practice and widely used thru Japan, but I still don\'t see it in a rule set.


My japanese-skill is awfully bad.
Nevertheless, I looked at the Nihon Puro Majan Renmei rule
(http://www.ma-jan.or.jp/guide/game_rule.php#10) and didn\'t see any reference to the \"bigger points rule\".