Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

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Fat*Dragon
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Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Fat*Dragon » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:43 am

Hello there! Does anybody know if it's possible to declare riichi, declare a concealead kan and win on the replacement tile from the dead wall in one go?
Let's consider following hand:
5-bam 6-bam 7-bam :north :north 5-dot 6-dot green-dra green-dra green-dra 3-crak 3-crak 3-crak
you draw 3-crak then you declare riichi and your 3 cracks concealed kan, draw the replacement tile from the dead wall - which is 7-dot - and win with it by rinchan kaihou?

Any help is appreciated!
Thanks.

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Referee » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:08 pm

I don't think that's legal. You can have Riichi declared from before, then you draw your 3-crak and you can kan it, because it doesn't change the hand in any way, then you draw your 7-dot and declare tsumo. Riichi, Menzen Tsumo, Hatsu, Rinshan Kaihou. Mangan.

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by b4k4ni04 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:59 pm

I lean towards no as well, A Riichi declaration is synonymous to discarding.
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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by cavemaneca » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:11 pm

EMA Rules: "A player with a concealed waiting hand can declare riichi by clearly saying riichi, rotating
the discarded tile sideways and paying 1000 points to the table by placing a stick
by the discards."

This implies that a tile was discarded before you can declare riichi.

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Fat*Dragon » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:49 am

Thanks for your answers!

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Rosti » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:11 pm

When you've got the kan in your hand you wouldn't be in tenpai, so wouldn't it be an invalid riichi anyway? If you were somehow in tenpai then the kan would inevitably change your wait, so it still wouldn't be valid.

I also think the fact that you get your 1000 points back if someone calls ron off the tile you riichi on is support for the idea that riichi technically happens just after your discard.
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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by or2az » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:33 pm

Here is a post from 4 years ago that I am going to bring up again so that I can better understand the explanations. The hand is
5-bam 6-bam 7-bam :north :north 5-dot 6-dot green-dra green-dra green-dra 3-crak 3-crak 3-crak
The hand is tenpai but riichi has not been called, yet.
The next tile drawn is a 3-crak

I see two possibilities of winning this hand based on my limited expertise:
1) A concealed kan is declared, you draw the replacement tile of 7-dot , and you win. (rinchan kaihou, no riichi involved)
2) You call riichi instead, but the only tile you can discard and still be tenpai is the 3-crak you just picked up.
Now you draw the 7-dot and win by tsumo. (riichi, no rinchan kaihou involved)
Conclusion: you can not do both, riichi and rinchan kaihou. (unless you have called riichi from before, as referee has stated)
Am I missing anything?
Also, which attack is preferable, since you dont know in advance that the 7-dot is waiting for you just around the corner?
Last edited by or2az on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Referee » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:08 pm

This is situational, but In this case, if the situation doesn't make it too dangerous, I'd call kan, and then riichi on the extra tile if not 4-dot 7-dot

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Kyuu » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:25 pm

After a riichi call, I've done a sad case of a "proxy rinshan" (my own coined term), where my rinshanpai after the riichi was a winning tile - for someone else (hence proxy). :lol:

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by or2az » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:30 am

Referee wrote:This is situational, but In this case, if the situation doesn't make it too dangerous, I'd call kan, and then riichi on the extra tile if not 4-dot 7-dot
OK, I'm having trouble understanding this. Are you saying that you would call the kan, and then call riichi on the replacement tile, right then, ON THE SAME TURN, when you discard it.

I didn't think you could do that. Wouldn't you have to wait till your next draw to call riichi?
(And then you would be calling riichi on a different tile, not the replacement tile)

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Gnom » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:08 am

No problem, you can do that! You can reach whenever you discard, the fact that you got a rinshan doesn't change anything. As has been said, you can't first reach and call your kan, but the other way around works. Maybe it's harder to see in this situation where you're already tenpai, but supposed you were i-shanten and the rinshan made you tenpai, would it make sense to forbid declaring reach? (Granted, rules don't have to always make sense, but here that's how it works ;) )

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by or2az » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:59 am

OK, I think I got it. You are saying that if the hand was
5-bam 6-bam 8-bam :north :north 5-dot 6-dot green-dra green-dra green-dra 3-crak 3-crak 3-crak

and I draw the 3-crak , declare the kan, and get the 4-bam 7-bam as the replacement tile, which puts me in tenpai, I can call riichi immediately, discard the
8-bam , and wait for the 4-dot 7-dot for the win, AND, that this doesn't contradict the answer to the original question because you are not winning on the REPLACEMENT tile.
That means that it is possible to win by calling Riichi and Rinshan Kaihou together on the same turn if you declare the kan first, and the replacement tile does not give you the win, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT REFEREE SAID! Good Job, Guys!
EDIT: substitute "declaring a kan" for "rinshan kaihou" in the sentence above.
Last edited by or2az on Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Iapetus » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:10 am

Kyuu wrote:After a riichi call, I've done a sad case of a "proxy rinshan" (my own coined term), where my rinshanpai after the riichi was a winning tile - for someone else (hence proxy). :lol:
From Barticle's Japanese Mahjong Guide, Section 15: optional yaku:
カン振り/ 槓振/ カンブリ[kanburi]
Kanburi is a one-Han scoring element which can be claimed when you declare a Ron win off a
tile discarded by a player after they have just declared a Kong, taken their supplement tile and
then discarded.
Last edited by Iapetus on Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Gnom » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:06 am

or2az wrote:OK, I think I got it. You are saying that if the hand was
5-bam 6-bam 8-bam :north :north 5-dot 6-dot green-dra green-dra green-dra 3-crak 3-crak 3-crak

and I draw the 3-crak , declare the kan, and get the 4-bam 7-bam as the replacement tile, which puts me in tenpai, I can call riichi immediately, discard the
8-bam , and wait for the 4-dot 7-dot for the win, AND, that this doesn't contradict the answer to the original question because you are not winning on the REPLACEMENT tile.
That means that it is possible to win by calling Riichi and Rinshan Kaihou together on the same turn if you declare the kan first, and the replacement tile does not give you the win, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT REFEREE SAID! Good Job, Guys!
Nope, you can EITHER win by rinshan kaihou OR declare reach. The point I was making is just that you can reach upon discarding said replacement tile (or whatever tile as long as you're tenpai). In the case you describe you wouldn't get the yaku "rinshan kaihou" since you didn't win on your rinshan. Also, the words may be confusing: "rinshan" which is just the Japanese word for "replacement tile" and "rinshan kaihou" which is the yaku granted for winning on this replacement tile.

Note that you don't have to take the win, you may very well draw a winning tile as rinshan and ignore this win and the subsequent yaku in order to reach, though the situations in which you'd do that are pretty specific...

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Re: Riichi dec. and rinchan kaihou

Post by Barticle » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:43 am

Iapetus wrote:[kanburi]
If quoting my guide please give credit and context. In this case the crucial context being that Kanburi is an optional (and uncommon) yaku.

A quick reminder that my guide is copyrighted. I will allow small extracts to be posted only on this forum and only if the source is noted, thanks.

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