Rinshan Kaihô and the Tsumo Fu

[Referee]

I'm under the impression that you would get the 2 fu only after an ankan, or a chain that is started with an ankan. But I don't know, it seems to be yet another "Roll-your-own-rules" point.

When Koromo (not a Kodomo) discards 1p and Saki goes Kan! Kan! Kan! Tsumo! Koromo pays for the full hand. (In this case the 2 fu are irrelevant because the hand ends up at kazoe yakuman). So my thought is, since one player is paying the full value, should I get the 2 fu for Tsumo? All the examples in this thread seem to be with ankan... Though I know that in majan sometimes logic doesn't work exactly right.

@Ignatius: Last message of the 2010 part of this thread. You already know this for sure, but it is a good question and it should be answered. The thing is it depends on the winning tile. If you are holding, say
, your wait is . The 1-4 is two-sided wait (0 fu), but the 3 is a pair wait (2 fu).

[or2az]

All the examples in this thread seem to be with ankan...

Not so. The 1st example is an open kan. The was claimed as a discard and added to a concealed pung to form an open kong. The supplemental tile was a self-draw from the dead wall. Tsumo. Rinshan Kaihou. 800 from everybody.

Optional house rules, like the pao rule (in that particular saki hand), determine only how the payments are made, either completely by the responsible person (Koromo) or by everybody, when there are no special rules in effect.

As stated in Barts guide, optionally, the payments are made "just as they would with a Ron win". He doesn't say that it is a Ron win.
I don't believe you can ever call Ron and win by Rinshan Kaihou.
Hence, a self-pick from the dead wall, tsumo, 2 points.

An optional version of this rule known as Daiminkan Pao can be applied in cases where a player completes a Kong (specifically a Daiminkan) using a discard tile called from an opponent and then declares a Rinshan Kaihō win after completing their hand with the supplement tile. The discarder is liable and has to pay for the win in full, just as they would with a Ron win.

[Senechal]

The general idea behind not counting 2 fu for self-picking is that you had your chance to win by a self-pick from the live wall. This logic usually extends to how you cannot declare haitei tsumo off of a rinshan replacement tile, because it didn't come from the live wall.

Of course, as we know both of these are things that can be statuated on as options independently. Scoring 2 fu for rinshan tsumo wins I would say is still quite popular to the point that I think that it is an overwhelming standard in riichi mahjong now (and quite inconsequential to the game: 20% of the time, you're going to get some odd small number of points), but rinshan+haitei for 2 han is much rarer. Not impossible to find, but nowhere near an equivalent position.

I was of the 0 fu camp long ago, but have conformed to the spirit of modern mahjong since. "Tsumo is 2 fu, except for pinfu" is much easier to explain to new players than layering multiple conditions on them at once.

[or2az]

but rinshan+haitei for 2 han is much rarer.

Very true since these yaku do not stack, according to popular opinion, yours included.
Just thought I'd mention this before someone brings up this topic again.
http://reachmahjong.com/en/forum/viewto ... yue#p55281