Starting game points

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or2az
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Re: Starting game points

Post by or2az » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:22 pm

as in this fictional game
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Re: Starting game points

Post by Shirluban » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:51 pm

Referee wrote:But everyone was Tenpai, not Noten! You reached! And you know better than to do a noten riichi. ;)
Good point.
Very good point!

Then the score-sheet is wrong: if everyone was tenpai East 3 should be East 2-1 ; if everyone was noten, it should be a chonbo and East 2 again.
Unless it's agari renchan instead of tenpai renchan (implying non-EMA rules).
Or if I was tenpai, reached, then got a dead hand. In this special case I'll get a technical noten without the noten riichi penalty.
More probably the first case: an input mistake. :wink:

Then again, it shows the limitation of score-sheets for error correction.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re: Starting game points

Post by or2az » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:30 pm

if everyone was tenpai East 3 should be East 2-1 unless it's agari renchan instead of tenpai renchan (implying non-EMA rules).
The developer had written me previously stating that he will be updating the app to include other rulesets so when I entered 25000 starting points on the updated app, which is non-EMA, perhaps agari renchan became the new current rule.
Would that make the scoresheet correct?
Everyone was tenpai but since the dealer did not win, the seats rotated and East 2 became East 3.
Seems logical to me but I may be off base somewhere.

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Re: Starting game points

Post by Shirluban » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:30 am

or2az wrote:Everyone was tenpai but since the dealer did not win, the seats rotated and East 2 became East 3.
This isn't EMA rules.

You have basically four options to handle dealer's repeats (renchan):
• Agari: East stays East if he wins the hand.
• Tenpai: East stays East if he's tenpai and nobody win. OR if he wins the hand.
• Noten: East stays East if nobody win (he can be either tenpai or noten). OR if he wins the hand.
• No renchan at all: East never stays East ; the winds always rotate.

The most common option for riichi rules is tenpai renchan (incl. EMA).
Some rules use a different option for East and South rounds. (Club Riichi de Montréal uses tenpai renchan during East round, and noten renchan during South round.)

If the app uses agari renchan, I think the scoresheet would be correct.
Does it resolve the winds' rotation automatically?
If so, it should have a setting to change the renchan condition.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re: Starting game points

Post by or2az » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:03 am

Just to clear things up a bit more,
I sent an email to the developer.
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I believe Shirluban stated this as one of the possibilities.

Geez, I am so impressed with you guys.

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Re: Starting game points

Post by Barticle » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:44 pm

Referee wrote:Original North then posts on this forum hoping that this win is indicative of a south-round comeback.
Still hoping.
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Re: Starting game points

Post by Referee » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:00 pm

Wow, wow, wow... HOLD THE PRESSES!!!

Has no one noticed anything weird in E3-1??? Really??

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Re: Starting game points

Post by or2az » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:15 pm

If you are referring to the noten riichi, I was under the impression that the developers reply to my email cleared that up.
Are you referring to something else?
Either way, the truth is out there.
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X-FILES starts Jan 3rd here in the states.
New season. Ten episodes. Enjoy.

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Re: Starting game points

Post by Referee » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:52 pm

Yeah, a noten riichi... That is weird.

I'm not sure I like this rule. How does a hand become dead after riichi? Wrong number of tiles can't be the case, since you don't change the hand after the declaration... In any case, I would say that my hand becoming dead is my responsibility, and thus I should be liable to chonbo... I require further explanation, because for the time being, this looks quite impossible. So what am I missing?

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Re: Starting game points

Post by or2az » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:49 am

Since I have limited experience in these matters, someone else will have to weigh in on this, especially the chombo part.
This is what I came up with. You probably know most of this already.

The most common use of the term "dead hand" is for hands that may no longer participate in the game due to a critical, usually accidental, mistake. This is related, but not identical to chombo (a usually intentional mistake by a player that ends the round and forces the offender to pay mangan).

For instance, a dead hand may result if a player
1. Looks at the tiles in an opponents hand or the dead wall.
2. Draws a tile before the opponent before him has discarded.
3. Knocks over tiles from the wall (not entirely sure about this one)
The players hand is dead immediately after any of the above conditions are noticed but play can continue.

Suppose I call riichi when not tenpai.
If someone else wins, my mistake will probably go unnoticed.
However, if I call a win, or the game ends in a draw, someone will notice.
Result: Dead hand.
I assume I lose my riichi stick and have to pay the noten penalty but according to the app developer, there is no chombo, as per EMA rules.
(See email reply above)
That would explain E3-1, I think.

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Re: Starting game points

Post by Gnom » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:51 am

If you are busted with a notes riichi it’s a chombo indeed ;-)
The case referred to here is if you declare riichi with a valid tenpai hand and get a dead hand penalty afterwards. Your hand was tenpai when you riichied and still has a tenpai shape, so no chombo, but it is not considered tenpai due to a mistake on your part. Most common case resulting in this is a false winning call without showing your tiles (« Ron! Ah, no, that wasn’t the one »)

To be clear, a dead hand is a penalty where a player can’t win or call but game continues. It comes with offenses serious enough to be reprimanded, but not serious enough to cancel the deal, for example having a wrong number of tiles or making an invalid call (call 3 to complete a 56 / kuikae).

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